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Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?

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Gnostic Bishop

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Re: Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?

PostMon Mar 20, 2017 3:55 pm

Serendipity wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=pSPvnFDDQHk

Check what is said at the 13 min. mark on stoning women.

Is that how you would treat a free person or is that more how you would treat a slave?

I compliment you on not attacking the main premise that Islam is a slave promoting religion.

You show some insight.

I see Muslim women as slaves because that is what Islam makes of them.

As you an see from the link I put, the right wing of Islam is much larger than you are indicating.

Regards
DL


I'm at work and I really can't watch videos. Would you mind telling me what they say?

Listen GB, you have to separate culture and people's actions from religion. If someone acts in a certain way it should reflect on him and only him. Not his religion. People use religion as an excuse when the fact is they're the assholes.

I never said Islam is a slave promoting religion. Islam actually promotes freeing the slaves and gave rights to women that were nonexistent before Islam. When it comes to the right wing of Islam, I don't believe in it. The prophet told us to be moderate and those people are anything but moderate and are using Islam to promote their political agendas.

I'm a single Muslim 26 year old woman and I work, go out as I please, dress the way I want and travel around the world. Do you see me as a slave? If yes, then can you tell me the reasons?


Yes. You have submitted to an imaginary God and are helping promote slavery by being in your religion that promotes slavery.

This is not about you. Think of all your sisters who suffer while the lucky few like you do not.

Do you deny that Islam recognizes child brides and do you think it proper for female children to be sold to old men?

Regards
DL
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Creeper

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Re: Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?

PostTue Mar 21, 2017 3:54 pm

phpBB [video]


Image

Gnostic Bishop wrote:Do you deny that Islam recognizes child brides and do you think it proper for female children to be sold to old men?


Hey GB :Smile:

Can you please show me where exactly in the Qur'an that it says that this is acceptable behaviour?

You might be interested in reading this

http://misconceptions-about-islam.com/islam-quran-abolish-slavery.htm

Here is the entirety of Surah Al Balad (The City) 90, one of the many parts referenced in the link above. It is one of the shorter Surahs/chapters towards the end of the Qur'an.

90:1
I swear by this city, Makkah -
90:2
And you, [O Muhammad], are free of restriction in this city
90:3
And [by] the father and that which was born [of him],
90:4
We have certainly created man into hardship.
90:5
Does he think that never will anyone overcome him?
90:6
He says, "I have spent wealth in abundance."
90:7
Does he think that no one has seen him?
90:8
Have We not made for him two eyes?
90:9
And a tongue and two lips?
90:10
And have shown him the two ways?
90:11
But he has not broken through the difficult pass.
90:12
And what can make you know what is [breaking through] the difficult pass?
90:13
It is the freeing of a slave
90:14
Or feeding on a day of severe hunger
90:15
An orphan of near relationship
90:16
Or a needy person in misery
90:17
And then being among those who believed and advised one another to patience and advised one another to compassion.
90:18
Those are the companions of the right.
90:19
But they who disbelieved in Our signs - those are the companions of the left.
90:20
Over them will be fire closed in.

Image

I don't really have a dog in this fight and I honestly couldn't care less, but I am telling you, that you are wrong. Keep the religious hate boner alive.

Peace be upon you
A fool thinks himself to be wise,
a wise man knows himself to be a fool.

Everything is meaningless, a chasing after the wind.
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Gnostic Bishop

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Re: Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?

PostTue Mar 21, 2017 5:08 pm

Did Mohammed have a child bride?

Yes he did, a slave that he paid for.

Or do you think she was free?

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DL
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Gnostic Bishop

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Re: Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?

PostTue Mar 21, 2017 5:10 pm

Creeper wrote:[

I don't really have a dog in this fight and I honestly couldn't care less, but I am telling you, that you are wrong. Keep the religious hate boner alive.



I shall. Tell me though, why do you respect religions with immoral ideologies that make them intolerant, homophobic and misogynous just the way Christianity and Islam are?

Tell us why you do not hate such abominations.

Regards
DL
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Re: Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?

PostTue Mar 21, 2017 8:00 pm

Gnostic Bishop wrote:Did Mohammed have a child bride?

No. :roll: She was old enough to bleed, which was all that mattered back in the dark ages (literally, anywhere you went in the world at the time). She was old enough to be engaged to someone else before Muhammad (pbuh) and a Sharia marriage would have required her consent.

Nice try.


Yes he did, a slave that he paid for.

Or do you think she was free?

I'm slightly confused by what you are asking here... She was free to make the choice, it wouldn't have been on if she disagreed, the marriage was also to cement a familial relationship between Muhammad and Abu Bakr. Marriages like that have been done for a very long time. He wouldn't have 'purchased' her as you put it, but he would have certainly paid a wedding dowry. He also would have paid for it for the rest of his life by putting up with her shit, as any man who has ever been with a woman can attest to. :lol:

Keep slinging bro, I'm sure something will stick one day.


Creeper wrote:I don't really have a dog in this fight and I honestly couldn't care less, but I am telling you, that you are wrong. Keep the religious hate boner alive.



I shall.

Excellent. I'm sure you will.

Tell me though, why do you respect religions with immoral ideologies that make them intolerant, homophobic and misogynous just the way Christianity and Islam are?

Tell us why you do not hate such abominations.

I shall, if and when you decide to show me where exactly in the Qur'an that it condones or encourages the kind of behaviour that you claim Islam is all about.

That seems fair to me, I prefer to get information like this straight from the horse's mouth so I can avoid any unnecessary misconceptions and propaganda. I have already asked you to do this nicely, I said please and everything. I will show you mine if you show me yours. :wink:
A fool thinks himself to be wise,
a wise man knows himself to be a fool.

Everything is meaningless, a chasing after the wind.
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Gnostic Bishop

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Re: Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?

PostWed Mar 22, 2017 1:06 am

Do your own leg work like I did.

Nice that you at least admit that money changed hands when Mohammed got his new little slave toy.

Regards
DL
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Taragaia

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Re: Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?

PostWed Mar 22, 2017 6:25 am

Creeper wrote:[b]I shall, if and when you decide to show me where exactly in the Qur'an that it condones or encourages the kind of behaviour that you claim Islam is all about.
]
[/quote]

Most of this stuff isn't in the Qu'ran, but most muslims of the Sunni majority believe you can't have the Qu'ran without the Hadith. The Qu'ran commands it too.

Most of the stuff GB mentioned isn't in the Qu'ran, you're right there. But it is in the Hadith and sunnah, which is something most muslims follow. It's quite easy that way to say ''but it's not in the Qu'ran'' while neglecting the other half of books you're supposed to follow unless you're a Quranist and I tend to recall from the previous website that such a muslim got vehemently attacked by the other muslims for not doing it right.

I'm willing to bring the examples of the Hadith in question.

The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, “Best wishes and Allah’s Blessing and a good luck.” Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah’s Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.” {Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234}


Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death). (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64; see also Numbers 65 and 88)


I am sure you will find them interesting. Sahih Bukhari being one of the most important lines of Hadith.

That her age might have been acceptable then is one thing, but using it as a reason to marry children now is wrong and it is still done. Because of these authentic sources. If the prophet did it, why can't others?

Links:
https://islamgreatreligion.wordpress.co ... as-only-9/
http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/prepubescent.htm
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Re: Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?

PostWed Mar 22, 2017 8:56 am

Taragaia wrote:
The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, “Best wishes and Allah’s Blessing and a good luck.” Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah’s Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.” {Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234}


Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death). (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64; see also Numbers 65 and 88)


I am sure you will find them interesting. Sahih Bukhari being one of the most important lines of Hadith.

That her age might have been acceptable then is one thing, but using it as a reason to marry children now is wrong and it is still done. Because of these authentic sources. If the prophet did it, why can't others?

Links:
https://islamgreatreligion.wordpress.co ... as-only-9/
http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/prepubescent.htm


Personally, I think this is the influence of the Talmud and of the Jews on Muhammad. In the Talmud, the boys had to be nine years of age. The girls had to be three years of age.

"MISHNAH. A GIRL OF THE AGE OF THREE YEARS AND ONE DAY MAY BE BETROTHED BY INTERCOURSE; … IF ONE WAS YOUNGER THAN THIS AGE INTERCOURSE WITH HER IS LIKE PUTTING A FINGER IN THE EYE." http://www.come-and-hear.com/editor/america_2.html

The Talmud functions in a very similar way to the Hadiths, while the Quran is similar to the Torah. I have heard it explained that these things were added to the Talmud while in captivity because these practices were part of the culture of the time, and the Jews were in captivity. Therefore, there was pressure to accept the practices of the people where they were in captivity.

I don't think this entirely explains the presence of things like this in the Talmud. Although, it would also be true that this was a cultural practice rather than a practice intended to be part of Islam. So, I don't doubt that this is what some people believe. However, in either case, there has been no complete removal of these teachings that cause conflict with others who are not part of these religions. It would seem easy to do, but for whatever reason, they remain.

I know from experience that some people do believe that what I quoted from the Talmud gives them permission to do these things to children. I don't doubt that some people in Islam do the same. There should be a way to remove them completely, but this has not happened yet. This is yet another reason that I could never accept Islam. Things like this hit too close to home for me, and I will not spend my life trying to explain them to people as though there was ever going to be a way to make them understand why they have not been removed from their teachings. I will not ever be put in the position to try to defend my religion by pointing out how things like this come from pre-existent cultural practices. A religion that obeys God should have the power to remove them, period.
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Re: Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?

PostWed Mar 22, 2017 11:32 am

Creeper wrote:No. She was old enough to bleed, which was all that mattered back in the dark ages (literally, anywhere you went in the world at the time). She was old enough to be engaged to someone else before Muhammad (pbuh) and a Sharia marriage would have required her consent.

That isn't true. Before the industrial revolution and much further back in time, girls never got their period at the same age as we do now. Just comparing the last century and now, many have observed that girls are getting their period much much younger (in the West it is 8yrs now). Its has been going down from ages 16-20 and its largely because of enviromental factors. So iam pretty sure she wasn't old enough to bleed circa 600AD, let alone engage in intercourse. And if, 50yrs from now, girls begin to bleed at 4yrs of age (the pineal gland is responsible for sexual development and the earlier it is tampered with i:e calcification from fluoride, the earlier said development onsets), will that make it right for them to be married off and for the marriages to be consummated?
@Rainerann
so those practices in the Talmud and the Hadith wouldn't have to be 'law' but some sort of permission for pedophilia. Because there are well meaning Jews and Muslims who would never do that regardless of the permission from the book(s). Just like the recent Californian law decriminalizing child prostitution. It is criminals legitimizing their perverted tastes.
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Gnostic Bishop

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Re: Do you, a free person, see Muslim females as slaves?

PostWed Mar 22, 2017 3:12 pm

Rainerann wrote:[

I know from experience that some people do believe that what I quoted from the Talmud gives them permission to do these things to children. I don't doubt that some people in Islam do the same. There should be a way to remove them completely, but this has not happened yet. This is yet another reason that I could never accept Islam. Things like this hit too close to home for me, and I will not spend my life trying to explain them to people as though there was ever going to be a way to make them understand why they have not been removed from their teachings. I will not ever be put in the position to try to defend my religion by pointing out how things like this come from pre-existent cultural practices. A religion that obeys God should have the power to remove them, period.


I agree with this.

Any ideology that is an idol worshiping cult, like Islam, will not touch ancient writings regardless of how unhealthy and immoral they are. Those religions that do not evolve will eventually die out.

That is why Gnostic Christians are perpetual seekers who try to move the bar of excellence up.

That is why we reject immoral Gods like Yahweh and Allah.

Regards
DL
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