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US won't insist on a two-state solution in the Middle East

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Rainerann

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Re: US won't insist on a two-state solution in the Middle Ea

PostMon Feb 20, 2017 12:09 am

Scimitar wrote:HI and peace to you rainerann,

we've not had a chance to speak yet, but if I may.

I believe what bro Thunderian is alluding to is the following (I could be wrong so I would await his reply).

The children of Israel did not fulfil the covenant, but God kept HIS end of the covenant anyway - and now that which is happening in Israel/Palestine is willed by God.

This is what I believe bro Thunderian is saying.

God Bless, :)

Scimi


Thank you for your response Scimi. Ezekiel 37 is a common narrative that I have discussed many times with people who are generally pretrib overall, and make the suggestion that the church is not present when Israel is judged and/or they have somehow found a way to convince others that there are two judgements using Ezekiel as their support. This is why I referenced the article where Netanyahu quotes from Ezekiel 37 because it is often used to support the state of Israel by members of the church.

Somehow people find it difficult to understand how these prophecies would be fulfilled and integrated into the book of Revelation that doesn't mention Israel. The entire New Testament doesn't mention Israel having a separate fulfilment of prophecy either. Never does it say that the prophecies of the prophets concerning Israel will be fulfilled separately from what is written in Revelation. However, they separate them nevertheless which is the opposite of what the scriptures actually say.

Many people assume that there is some safe space these Jews will be taken until the end is complete too. These are the reasons that they say we should still support Israel in this time because they have found a way to force the scriptures to say they will be protected in the end. It is a real nail-biter this narrative the church has concocted to support this apostasy and support of the state of Israel that is filled with strife. There is a great deal of strife required to maintain this narrative that justifies supporting the state of Israel, while consistently contradicting other Christian teachings about bringing the message of Christ to the Jew and the Gentile. The church should be concerned with their witness, not with helping Israel wage war until they have obtained national sovereignty.

Ezekiel 38:11 says something that makes this whole thing impossible too. This is about Gog going into the land. "You will say, ‘I will go up against a land of open villages; I will come against a tranquil people who are living securely, all of them living without walls and without bars or gates—"

This can't be used to describe anyone coming against the state of Israel that is presently occupying Palestine unless they decide to get rid of the wall at some point. Although, Netanyahu has been quoted for praising the effectiveness of their wall as the result of Trump's campaign promise to build a wall between Mexico and America to deal with illegal immigration.

phpBB [video]


What this means is that Israel would Gog according to Ezekiel, which would mean there is an earthquake that will happen soon (Ezekiel 38:19).

This earthquake is referenced in the sixth seal of the book of Revelation. It says that the sun will turn black like sackcloth (Revelation 6:12-17). This is how you put the puzzle of Revelation together. This refernce of sackcloth matches the sackcloth that the witnesses will wear according to Revelation 11.

They will perform displays of God's power and cause plagues to come on whomever they wish as part of what is referenced in Ezekiel 38:22-23 after the earthquake. They will also witness for 42 months. These witnesses are more than likely the 144,000 who are sealed and given a new song in Revelation 7.

At the end of 42 months they will be killed in the city where our Lord was killed, and after three days, they will be resurrected the way that the 144,000 are said to be redeemed from the earth in Revelation 14:3.

Revelation 13 says that the beast will also wage war against the saints and conquer them for 42 months, which is more than likely the same time that the witnesses will be present, and when it says he will conquer them, this is when they will be killed.

Then after 42, when second beast arrives, the mark of the beast will be required and soon will come the fall of Babylon and it doesn't require any strife to see this. It also doesn't require using the Bible as a series of seperate prophecies.

I don't believe that prophecy is an easy subject, but it is a subject without strife. Wherever there is strife, there is an innacurate interpretation of prophecy.

Take care
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Re: US won't insist on a two-state solution in the Middle Ea

PostMon Feb 20, 2017 7:02 am

OK, back home and the boy is watching cartoons and eating cake. Here's the scripture I promised to support the timeline. There is a TON of scripture I could use, but I will try and keep it short and fill out particulars in later posts if clarification is needed.

Rapture of the Church

There is so much controversy surrounding this doctrine and there really needn't be. Essentially, it's the teaching that true believers, the Church, will be removed from the earth as a precursor to the wrath of God that is poured out in Revelation. Lot's removal before the destruction of Sodom is a type of Rapture, as is Noah's salvation in the ark.

The Rapture of the Church is imminent, meaning it could happen at any time, and has been taught by church fathers as such since the time of Christ. There are those who would have us believe that the Rapture is a relatively modern concept invented by John Darby, but there is far too much evidence in the writings of believers going back two thousand years to give that theory any credence.

Jesus refers to the Rapture in Matthew 24:

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


Jesus Christ's disciple Peter refers to the Rapture in 2 Peter, with references to Noah and Lot, when he speaks of the Day of the Lord. The apostle Paul speaks of it in his first letter to the Thessalonians, chapter 4:

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


Paul brings it up again in 2 Thessalonians, when he teaches that the antichrist will not be revealed to the world until the Church has been removed, which brings us to ...

Antichrist revealed

In 2 Thessalonians, in a passage where he speaks of the Rapture, Paul also informs us that once the Church has been removed, the antichrist can begin his work. ... only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
And then shall that Wicked be revealed ...


The Spirit of God, which indwells all believers, is acting as a force against Satan. Once the Church is gone, there will be nothing in the way of global apostasy. When you throw in the everyday chaos that is threatening the world right now, it's easy to see how a supernaturally evil person could come along and take advantage of the situation. Hitler is a historical type of this person, but he was held in check by the Holy Spirit. There will be no such check when the antichrist comes.

Peace treaty between Israel and her enemies

I think a big part of why the antichrist will seem so attractive to humanity is that he will seem to bring peace to the Middle East. I can't imagine any peace agreement that both Israel and the Arab world would be happy with, but the Bible says in Daniel 9:27, he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week [seven years]:

I think Israel will be giving something precious up for this peace treaty, for it's spoken of in Isaiah 28 as a "covenant with death" and an agreement with hell. But the Jews will view the antichrist as their promised Messiah, something Jesus spoke of in John 5, when he said, I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive, and will be blinded.

Jewish Temple rebuilt

If a peace treaty between Israel and the Arabs seems unlikely, what are the odds of the Jewish temple being rebuilt on the Temple Mount. But this will apparently be a condition of the treaty, as scripture speaks in Daniel 8:11, 9:27 and 12:11, and in Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14 of the sacrifices in the Temple during the time of the antichrist. It's interesting to note that the Jews believe that the Messiah will be the one who directs the building of the coming Third Temple.

Antichrist declares that he is God and global persecution of Jews begins

The peace treaty lasts only three and half years, at which point the antichrist goes into the Temple and declares himself to be God. This is referenced in a few places, and is tied to the passages about sacrifices that I have already noted. This event is known as the Abomination of Desolation, and Jesus had the following advice for Jews who see this take place. Run. Don't look back. Don't go home first. Don't wait. Run.

Mark 13:

14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.


There are those who deny this is an event still to come, and that in AD70 Antiochus Epiphanes fulfilled this prophecy when he sacrificed a pig in the Jewish Temple, I would direct them to verse 19 above and submit that we have not yet seen the affliction that is spoken of yet, but the events to come in Revelation will fill the bill nicely.

Remnant of Jews flees from Israel to the city of Petra (also referred to in scripture as Edom, Bosrah and Selah, among other names) where they are protected by God after they finally repent and call on him

Isaiah 16:1-4, 33:15-17, 42:10-13, 43:20-21 are all passages that speak of Petra (about 120 miles south of Jerusalem) as a place of safety. In Psalm 108, King David prophecies of the Lord, Who will bring me into the strong city? who will lead me into Edom? There are many, many references to Petra (by it's many names) and the end times.

The gist of it is that a remnant of Jews will be able to make their way to Petra where they will call on the name of the Lord for their deliverance, and God will supernaturally protect them until he returns in three and a half years to destroy Satan's armies. I believe that the nation of Israel today, with all it's weapons and intelligence networks, is being prepared to preserve this remnant of Jews for God's sake.

Revelation 12 speaks of the flight of Jews to Petra, and their preservation by the hand of God:

14 And to the woman [Israel] were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

Note that the themes and events are consistently portrayed across multiple books of the Bible and over hundreds of years. Daniel tells us of an antichrist who will forge a seven-year treaty with Israel, but that halfway through it, this lawless man, this man of sin, will break the covenant. About 500 years later, Jesus tells the Jews that this same man will desecrate their temple and that they should run for their lives. Meanwhile, Isaiah, writing 200 years before Daniel and 700 years before Christ and before the book of Revelation is written by John, speaks of Israel's end times flight and refuge among the rocks of Edom, in the wilderness. And the period of time they hide from their enemies in Petra? A time (one year), times (two years) and half a time (a half year), or the balance of the seven year treaty with the antichrist, and the remainder of the seven-year tribulation spoken of in Daniel 9.

Daniel speaks of the tribulation of Israel and of their supernatural protection by God in chapter 12:

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

It's interesting to note that in Revelation 12 the Jews are said to be given the wings of a great eagle as a means of their escape to Petra. The eagle wings are a symbol in scripture of the Lord's protection, but the eagle is also known these days as the symbol of America, the nation from which Israel has received so much military assistance. That assistance will no doubt come in very useful as the new holocaust approaches. I imagine it will be a running battle as Israel fights her way to a place of safety. America won't be on Israel side at that point, but the weapons will still be in Israel's hands.

Jesus Christ returns with his saints and destroys the armies that are threatening the remnant of Jews at Petra

First, from Revelation 19, we read of the return of the Lord Jesus Christ as he sets out to redeem Israel and destroy evil:

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


Then to Isaiah 63, where the winepress analogy is continued. Jesus has clearly been to Edom (Petra) to save the remnant of believing Jews from annihilation. We don't get to read what actually happened when Jesus faced the forces that were threatening Israel, but since he's covered in blood, we can guess, can't we?

1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.


Jesus descends onto the Temple Mount, then faces the forces gathered against him at Armageddon/Jesus mulches the forces of evil, turning them into a fine paste (citation needed)

I don't need to add much here. I will let scripture speak.

Revelation 16:

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
...
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Jeremiah 25:

33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.

Zechariah 14:

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

Revelation 14:

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Revelation 19:

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.


Satan is bound and Jesus Christ rules the earth for 1000 years from Jerusalem in a united and completed Israel, who are finally in full possession of the land that was promised to Abraham

Once the forces of evil have been dealt with, Satan is bound for a thousand years, ushering in a perfect government on earth ruled by Jesus Christ.

Revelation 20:

1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.


At the end of the thousand years, Satan is released and leads a rebellion against God again. This is when the war in Ezekiel 38-39 takes place. Israel will be living in peace in unwalled villages, as they have done at no other time in their history, so it makes sense to place it there.

The millennial reign of Christ is also the time spoken of in Ezekiel 37, the dry bones chapter, when Israel will have life again in a redeemed relationship with God.

14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
...
21 And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land:
22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
23 Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwellingplaces, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their God.
24 And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.
26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
28 And the heathen shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.


With all respect to Netanyahu, this passage has obviously not been fulfilled yet.

Jeremiah 32:

37 Behold, I will gather them out of all countries, whither I have driven them in mine anger, and in my fury, and in great wrath; and I will bring them again unto this place, and I will cause them to dwell safely:
38 And they shall be my people, and I will be their God:
39 And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them:


Amen and amen.
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Re: US won't insist on a two-state solution in the Middle Ea

PostMon Feb 20, 2017 11:59 pm

Thunderian wrote:
Antichrist revealed

In 2 Thessalonians, in a passage where he speaks of the Rapture, Paul also informs us that once the Church has been removed, the antichrist can begin his work. ... only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
And then shall that Wicked be revealed ...


The story saying that this verse suggests a rapture is made up. There is no reason to believe that the one holding back a complete apostasy is the presence of the church and not the presence of the Holy Spirit. We would need more information. Paul says that the people he is addressing know what this means, so the information existed at one point. "And you know what is now restraining him, so that he will be revealed at the proper time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way."

However, for us, we are only debating assumptions. I could just as easily say that it is the Holy Spirit doing this in obedience to God, but neither one would matter because there would need to be more information to prove either way. So it is not important. What is important is what can be agreed on within the verse, which is that there is such a thing as a mystery of lawlessness that will be revealed. Less is more.

Antichrist declares that he is God and global persecution of Jews begins

The peace treaty lasts only three and half years, at which point the antichrist goes into the Temple and declares himself to be God. This is referenced in a few places, and is tied to the passages about sacrifices that I have already noted. This event is known as the Abomination of Desolation, and Jesus had the following advice for Jews who see this take place. Run. Don't look back. Don't go home first. Don't wait. Run.

Mark 13:

14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.


There are those who deny this is an event still to come, and that in AD70 Antiochus Epiphanes fulfilled this prophecy when he sacrificed a pig in the Jewish Temple, I would direct them to verse 19 above and submit that we have not yet seen the affliction that is spoken of yet, but the events to come in Revelation will fill the bill nicely.


I agree that this event is yet to come because it describes what will happen during the sixth seal and several verses regarding the day of the Lord immediately after this. However, is there any reason to believe that the remnant who will obey this warning are not the Palestinians that are resisting the occupation and not the new settlers in the land? Is there any reason to not believe that this will signify an end to their suffering? Maybe, we have their names backwards because of the presence of the mystery of lawlessness is at work according to 2 Thessalonians 2. It is possible that Palestine should actually be called Israel and Israel should actually be called Palestine.

Palestine was first referred to as Palestine as early as the 5th century BC. Technically, the book of Ezra is set in Palestine, not "Israel," as well. The whole time period of Roman occupation, the area is referred to as Palestine in historical writings. Maybe this escape is for the people who were in the land prior to the return of the Jews and the occupation.

14 And to the woman [Israel] were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.



There is again no reason to assign the woman referred to in this passage to the people who have changed the name to Israel and deceived the world. This woman gives birth to a male child, who we can probably agree that this means Christ. Christianity was birthed from Judaism, so this would make sense at first. However, when the dragon is unable to harm her, he turns and persecutes her offspring. Her offspring are described this way, "So the dragon was furious with the woman and left to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and have the testimony about Jesus." (Revelation 12:17).

So, there are several things wrong with this is you are going to suggest that a rapture happens before the remnant is protected. Either this happens before the rapture; or the woman is the nation that is being identified as Israel and there is no rapture; or, the woman is not the nation that is being identified as Israel and there is also no rapture? There are three possibilities, but none of them welcome a belief in a rapture before this takes.

Ezekiel 38 also refers to an earthquake the same way Revelation 6 and Matthew 24 do. It cannot be describing the time when Satan will be released after the thousand years.

"18 Now on that day, the day when Gog comes against the land of Israel”—this is the declaration of the Lord God—“My wrath will flare up. I swear in My zeal and fiery rage: On that day there will be a great earthquake in the land of Israel." (Ezekiel 38:18-19).

Glad your son is feeling better. That must be a great relief.

Take care.
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Re: US won't insist on a two-state solution in the Middle Ea

PostTue Feb 21, 2017 7:18 am

Rainerann wrote:
Thunderian wrote:
Antichrist revealed

In 2 Thessalonians, in a passage where he speaks of the Rapture, Paul also informs us that once the Church has been removed, the antichrist can begin his work. ... only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
And then shall that Wicked be revealed ...


The story saying that this verse suggests a rapture is made up.


2 Thessalonians 2:1 speaks of the coming of Jesus Christ and the saints gathering together unto him.

Verse 2 then speaks of the day of Christ (not to be confused with the Day of the Lord), which in Paul's writings is always a reference to the Rapture of the Church and the judgement of the saints. See 1 Corinthians 1:8, 5:5, 2 Corinthians 1:14, Philippians 1:6,10, Philippians 2:16.

There is no reason to believe that the one holding back a complete apostasy is the presence of the church and not the presence of the Holy Spirit. We would need more information. Paul says that the people he is addressing know what this means, so the information existed at one point. "And you know what is now restraining him, so that he will be revealed at the proper time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way."

However, for us, we are only debating assumptions. I could just as easily say that it is the Holy Spirit doing this in obedience to God, but neither one would matter because there would need to be more information to prove either way. So it is not important. What is important is what can be agreed on within the verse, which is that there is such a thing as a mystery of lawlessness that will be revealed. Less is more.


Well, I guess we could argue about this and not convince each other, but it makes sense to me the the Holy Spirit working through the Church is what is preventing a lot more evil from occurring in the world these days. We can only imagine how things will be when there is not one believing Christian remaining.

Antichrist declares that he is God and global persecution of Jews begins

The peace treaty lasts only three and half years, at which point the antichrist goes into the Temple and declares himself to be God. This is referenced in a few places, and is tied to the passages about sacrifices that I have already noted. This event is known as the Abomination of Desolation, and Jesus had the following advice for Jews who see this take place. Run. Don't look back. Don't go home first. Don't wait. Run.

Mark 13:

14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:
15 And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house:
16 And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment.
17 But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.


There are those who deny this is an event still to come, and that in AD70 Antiochus Epiphanes fulfilled this prophecy when he sacrificed a pig in the Jewish Temple, I would direct them to verse 19 above and submit that we have not yet seen the affliction that is spoken of yet, but the events to come in Revelation will fill the bill nicely.


I agree that this event is yet to come because it describes what will happen during the sixth seal and several verses regarding the day of the Lord immediately after this. However, is there any reason to believe that the remnant who will obey this warning are not the Palestinians that are resisting the occupation and not the new settlers in the land?


Do the Palestinians observe the Sabbath? The parallel passage in Matthew 24 says But pray ye that your flight be not ... on the sabbath day. That is one reason why it can't be the Palestinians. Another reason is that Jesus was addressing Jews, and "Palestinians" didn't exist in Jesus' time.

Is there any reason to not believe that this will signify an end to their suffering? Maybe, we have their names backwards because of the presence of the mystery of lawlessness is at work according to 2 Thessalonians 2. It is possible that Palestine should actually be called Israel and Israel should actually be called Palestine.


I have to admit this is the first time I have ever heard anything like this. I can't even wrap my head around it. There is no hint in scripture, anywhere, this is could possibly be the case. Where did you get this from?

Palestine was first referred to as Palestine as early as the 5th century BC.


Philistia was a group of cities named after the Philistines.

Image

The name came to mean the entire region that we now know as Palestine. Are you claiming that the modern-day "Palestinians" are descendants of the Philistines?

Technically, the book of Ezra is set in Palestine, not "Israel," as well.


The book of Ezra is about the Jews return from captivity in Babylon to rebuild their temple in Jerusalem. Are you saying that the Palestinians (Philistines) were taken to Babylon, and then returned to Jerusalem to build a temple for the Jewish God?

14 And to the woman [Israel] were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.



There is again no reason to assign the woman referred to in this passage to the people who have changed the name to Israel and deceived the world.


Really? Who else could it be than Israel?

This woman gives birth to a male child, who we can probably agree that this means Christ. Christianity was birthed from Judaism, so this would make sense at first. However, when the dragon is unable to harm her, he turns and persecutes her offspring. Her offspring are described this way, "So the dragon was furious with the woman and left to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and have the testimony about Jesus." (Revelation 12:17).

So, there are several things wrong with this is you are going to suggest that a rapture happens before the remnant is protected. Either this happens before the rapture; or the woman is the nation that is being identified as Israel and there is no rapture; or, the woman is not the nation that is being identified as Israel and there is also no rapture? There are three possibilities, but none of them welcome a belief in a rapture before this takes.


Fourth possibility:

The woman is Israel. The Rapture has occurred and there is a remnant of Jews left that have fled to Petra. The remnant is comprised of Jews who have accepted Jesus after the Rapture, in other words, Jews which [now] keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Scripture supports this very well, as I showed in my last post.

Ezekiel 38 also refers to an earthquake the same way Revelation 6 and Matthew 24 do. It cannot be describing the time when Satan will be released after the thousand years.

"18 Now on that day, the day when Gog comes against the land of Israel”—this is the declaration of the Lord God—“My wrath will flare up. I swear in My zeal and fiery rage: On that day there will be a great earthquake in the land of Israel." (Ezekiel 38:18-19).


I am not sure how you can connect these passages based on an earthquake. There are many other indicators that make more sense that place it in the millennial reign of Christ, not to mention other earthquakes that clearly have nothing to do with Ezekiel 38.

Jeremiah 23 speaks of the only time when Israel will be living in peace and safety, as does Ezekiel 38. As pointed out, they have yet to do so as a nation, and the time spoken of is clearly that when Jesus Christ reigns on the earth.

5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.


Ezekiel 38:22 -

And I will plead against him [Gog] with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

- is a reference to Revelation 20 -

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


- which is set at the end of the Millennium.

Glad your son is feeling better. That must be a great relief.


It is. Thank you so much. :smile:
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Re: US won't insist on a two-state solution in the Middle Ea

PostTue Feb 21, 2017 9:33 am

Thunderian wrote:
2 Thessalonians 2:1 speaks of the coming of Jesus Christ and the saints gathering together unto him.

Verse 2 then speaks of the day of Christ (not to be confused with the Day of the Lord), which in Paul's writings is always a reference to the Rapture of the Church and the judgement of the saints. See 1 Corinthians 1:8, 5:5, 2 Corinthians 1:14, Philippians 1:6,10, Philippians 2:16.


No, it actually specifically says the opposite. "Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him: We ask you, brothers, not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction." (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3).

It is specifically saying that we will be gathered after the man of sin is revealed to answer the question they were wondering about this same subject. Paul is encouraging them to not become deceived into thinking that the end if the man of sin has not revealed himself. It is a similar scene that he is discouraging as the one when Peter says that he will not go to the cross and is rebuked for it (Mark 8:32-33). He is saying that we will not be gathered until this happens.

Is there any reason to not believe that this will signify an end to their suffering? Maybe, we have their names backwards because of the presence of the mystery of lawlessness is at work according to 2 Thessalonians 2. It is possible that Palestine should actually be called Israel and Israel should actually be called Palestine.


I have to admit this is the first time I have ever heard anything like this. I can't even wrap my head around it. There is no hint in scripture, anywhere, this is could possibly be the case. Where did you get this from?


I am saying that there were no walls and there was peace prior to the return of the Jews. There has not been any peace since this. Before, you even said you thought there would be no Israel in 10 years. Do you really suppose in 10 years Israel will live without walls?

Therefore, it is more likely that the name Israel is an illusion or a deception, the warning is for the people who were there before the Jews came from the north. There have been Jews there this whole time. I find it hard to believe no one practices the Sabbath there that is called a Palestinian because they are not an immigrant. I just find it so hard to understand how the church is so prejudiced against the people the who were in the land prior to 1948.

Technically, the book of Ezra is set in Palestine, not "Israel," as well.


The book of Ezra is about the Jews return from captivity in Babylon to rebuild their temple in Jerusalem. Are you saying that the Palestinians (Philistines) were taken to Babylon, and then returned to Jerusalem to build a temple for the Jewish God?


Nope, I am saying that the Palestinians are Jews and the land should have already been called Israel before the return of the northern Jews, and they have a right to the land according for the same reasons and that is why they resist leaving. When the abomination of desolation appears, it will be an end to the suffering that has been brought into the land by mystery Babylon AKA: Israel.

I am saying Israel should be called mystery Babylon and Palestine should be called Israel, but because of the beliefs in racial supremacy by the returning Jews, and their large bank accounts, the media tells us to believe these names are reversed. However, it is their behavior that reveals their real identity.

This woman gives birth to a male child, who we can probably agree that this means Christ. Christianity was birthed from Judaism, so this would make sense at first. However, when the dragon is unable to harm her, he turns and persecutes her offspring. Her offspring are described this way, "So the dragon was furious with the woman and left to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and have the testimony about Jesus." (Revelation 12:17).

So, there are several things wrong with this is you are going to suggest that a rapture happens before the remnant is protected. Either this happens before the rapture; or the woman is the nation that is being identified as Israel and there is no rapture; or, the woman is not the nation that is being identified as Israel and there is also no rapture? There are three possibilities, but none of them welcome a belief in a rapture before this takes.


Fourth possibility:

The woman is Israel. The Rapture has occurred and there is a remnant of Jews left that have fled to Petra. The remnant is comprised of Jews who have accepted Jesus after the Rapture, in other words, Jews which [now] keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Scripture supports this very well, as I showed in my last post.


You have to make up a whole narrative for this. You literally have to use your imagination to support this and then persuade other people to believe this like a salesman. The Tribulation Saints narrative is an extrabiblical teaching that can't be supported with scripture.

Ezekiel 38 also refers to an earthquake the same way Revelation 6 and Matthew 24 do. It cannot be describing the time when Satan will be released after the thousand years.

"18 Now on that day, the day when Gog comes against the land of Israel”—this is the declaration of the Lord God—“My wrath will flare up. I swear in My zeal and fiery rage: On that day there will be a great earthquake in the land of Israel." (Ezekiel 38:18-19).


I am not sure how you can connect these passages based on an earthquake. There are many other indicators that make more sense that place it in the millennial reign of Christ, not to mention other earthquakes that clearly have nothing to do with Ezekiel 38.

Jeremiah 23 speaks of the only time when Israel will be living in peace and safety, as does Ezekiel 38. As pointed out, they have yet to do so as a nation, and the time spoken of is clearly that when Jesus Christ reigns on the earth.

5 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.


Ezekiel 38:22 -

And I will plead against him [Gog] with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

- is a reference to Revelation 20 -

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


- which is set at the end of the Millennium.


"Then I saw Him open the sixth seal. A violent earthquake occurred; the sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair; the entire moon became like blood;" (Revelation 6:12).

"At that very hour there was a severe earthquake and a tenth of the city collapsed. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the survivors were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven." (Revelation 11:13).

"18 Now on that day, the day when Gog comes against the land of Israel”—this is the declaration of the Lord God—“My wrath will flare up. I swear in My zeal and fiery rage: On that day there will be a great earthquake in the land of Israel." (Ezekiel 38:18-19).

"Then the angel took the censer, filled it with fire from the altar, and hurled it to the earth; and there were rolls of thunder, and rumblings, and flashes of lightning, and an earthquake. And the seven angels with the seven trumpets prepared to sound them. Then the first angel sounded his trumpet, and hail and fire mixed with blood were flung to the earth. A third of the earth was burned up, along with a third of the trees and all the green grass.…" (Revelation 8:5-7).
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Re: US won't insist on a two-state solution in the Middle Ea

PostTue Feb 21, 2017 10:22 am

What I also truly don't understand about the churches position towards the state of Israel, is how they ignore the numerous Jews who openly oppose it. Have you ever listened to True Torah Jews? I absolutely love them. When I hear them, I say to myself, these are a people God will have mercy on one day.

Let's compare. Just listen to what this man has to say. This is a beautiful man who I firmly believe will find mercy. I cannot understand how the church refuses to support these rabbi's and will instead support the state of Israel, which they openly oppose. It makes absolutely no sense when you can tell they study Torah. They have humility. They seek to repent and find favor with God. I believe I already went through how Theodore Herzl thought he would create Israel with the Society of the Jews and by depending on a connection with Europe.

phpBB [video]


Let's compare what he says with what the deputy minister of Zionism says

Image

Why doesn't the church rebuke people when they say things like this? Instead, it is backwards. We rebuke the rabbi in the video, and we support the rabbi's who say things that directly contradict Christ's teaching. How is there any scripture at all to support the state of Israel in this case? They are clearly flying solo without favor from God. The only favor they have is by leeching off the favor that was given to the church. There is no Israel without our support. That should be a clear red flag for any Christian. Supporting Israel has to be done outside of scripture, because the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob doesn't let no one talk like that and get away with it.

Israel should be rebuked from a spiritual standpoint for things like this, which are the same reason that the prophets rebuked them, but the church is silent and finds a way to excuse this behavior. We should be supporting the rabbi's like the one in the video if we are going to use the verse, "I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you" (Genesis 12:3). If this verse were valid in any way, shape, or form in the modern world; the blessing it is talking about would come through blessing men like the rabbi who rebukes Zionism. We should be teaching and preaching about an Israel that is filled with righteousness. Instead, we don't seem to care about these things at all. We don't seem to any discernment in this way.

I understand that you think they have more to go through as a people. This means as members of the church, we should not be deluding ourselves by supporting them. Did the prophets support the people of Israel with anything but warnings when they were disobedient? No, and neither should we, but there would be no Israel without the support of church. Therefore, this again demonstrates that the churches support of the state of Israel is the apostasy and the state of Israel will reveal the man of sin. Then, we will be gathered to the Lord.

I truly find it difficult to understand how someone such as yourself who seems to be a good Christian man in every other way with a good understanding of scripture, willingly supports the state of Israel when I'm sure you would just as willingly rebuke someone for lying or misconduct of some other kind when the situation warranted it.

I also want to add, that while I have appreciated the opportunity for discussion on this subject, this will be my last response to this thread. However, I still look forward to your response if you choose to make one. Thank you and take care for now.
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Re: US won't insist on a two-state solution in the Middle Ea

PostTue Feb 21, 2017 2:31 pm

Consider me surprised.
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Re: US won't insist on a two-state solution in the Middle Ea

PostTue Feb 21, 2017 6:54 pm

Rainerann wrote:
Thunderian wrote:
2 Thessalonians 2:1 speaks of the coming of Jesus Christ and the saints gathering together unto him.

Verse 2 then speaks of the day of Christ (not to be confused with the Day of the Lord), which in Paul's writings is always a reference to the Rapture of the Church and the judgement of the saints. See 1 Corinthians 1:8, 5:5, 2 Corinthians 1:14, Philippians 1:6,10, Philippians 2:16.


No, it actually specifically says the opposite. "Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him: We ask you, brothers, not to be easily upset in mind or troubled, either by a spirit or by a message or by a letter as if from us, alleging that the Day of the Lord has come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way. For that day will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction." (2 Thessalonians 2:1-3).

It is specifically saying that we will be gathered after the man of sin is revealed to answer the question they were wondering about this same subject. Paul is encouraging them to not become deceived into thinking that the end if the man of sin has not revealed himself. It is a similar scene that he is discouraging as the one when Peter says that he will not go to the cross and is rebuked for it (Mark 8:32-33). He is saying that we will not be gathered until this happens.


It can be a confusing passage to read, and Paul has a really convoluted way of putting things sometimes, but the key is verses 7 and 8:

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed,
whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:


Either Paul is contradicting himself, or the day that cannot come until after the apostasy and the man of sin (verse 3) is the day of the Lord, when the wrath of God as poured out as detailed in Revelation. The timing of the Rapture in scripture is always clearly before the wrath of God.

Is there any reason to not believe that this will signify an end to their suffering? Maybe, we have their names backwards because of the presence of the mystery of lawlessness is at work according to 2 Thessalonians 2. It is possible that Palestine should actually be called Israel and Israel should actually be called Palestine.


I have to admit this is the first time I have ever heard anything like this. I can't even wrap my head around it. There is no hint in scripture, anywhere, this is could possibly be the case. Where did you get this from?


I am saying that there were no walls and there was peace prior to the return of the Jews. There has not been any peace since this. Before, you even said you thought there would be no Israel in 10 years. Do you really suppose in 10 years Israel will live without walls?


So the time of peace spoken of in Ezekiel 38 is the time before the creation of the state of Israel? What about the rest of Ezekiel 38? The nations listed in Ezekiel 38 that attack Israel are as follows:

Magog = Modern Day Russia
Persia = Modern Day Iran
Cush = Modern Day Ethiopia
Put = Modern Day Libya
Gomer = Modern Day Eastern Europe
Beth Togarmah = Modern Day Turkey

How do you read this as "Jews from the north"?

Therefore, it is more likely that the name Israel is an illusion or a deception, the warning is for the people who were there before the Jews came from the north.


Reading the Bible as anything other than literally is the reason why people get it so wrong.

I find it hard to believe no one practices the Sabbath there that is called a Palestinian because they are not an immigrant.


Are you now saying that there are non-Jews in Palestine that observe the Sabbath? And that these are the people Jesus was warning to flee in Matthew 24?

I just find it so hard to understand how the church is so prejudiced against the people the who were in the land prior to 1948.


Support for Israel does not equal prejudice against the Palestinians. And which "church" are you referring to? There are plenty of churches these days that take sides against Israel.

Technically, the book of Ezra is set in Palestine, not "Israel," as well.


The book of Ezra is about the Jews return from captivity in Babylon to rebuild their temple in Jerusalem. Are you saying that the Palestinians (Philistines) were taken to Babylon, and then returned to Jerusalem to build a temple for the Jewish God?


Nope, I am saying that the Palestinians are Jews and the land should have already been called Israel before the return of the northern Jews, and they have a right to the land according for the same reasons and that is why they resist leaving. When the abomination of desolation appears, it will be an end to the suffering that has been brought into the land by mystery Babylon AKA: Israel.

I am saying Israel should be called mystery Babylon and Palestine should be called Israel, but because of the beliefs in racial supremacy by the returning Jews, and their large bank accounts, the media tells us to believe these names are reversed. However, it is their behavior that reveals their real identity.


What does the fact that almost 100 percent of Palestinians are Muslims, and not Jews by birth or by faith, have on your theory?

This woman gives birth to a male child, who we can probably agree that this means Christ. Christianity was birthed from Judaism, so this would make sense at first. However, when the dragon is unable to harm her, he turns and persecutes her offspring. Her offspring are described this way, "So the dragon was furious with the woman and left to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and have the testimony about Jesus." (Revelation 12:17).

So, there are several things wrong with this is you are going to suggest that a rapture happens before the remnant is protected. Either this happens before the rapture; or the woman is the nation that is being identified as Israel and there is no rapture; or, the woman is not the nation that is being identified as Israel and there is also no rapture? There are three possibilities, but none of them welcome a belief in a rapture before this takes.


Fourth possibility:

The woman is Israel. The Rapture has occurred and there is a remnant of Jews left that have fled to Petra. The remnant is comprised of Jews who have accepted Jesus after the Rapture, in other words, Jews which [now] keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Scripture supports this very well, as I showed in my last post.


You have to make up a whole narrative for this. You literally have to use your imagination to support this and then persuade other people to believe this like a salesman. The Tribulation Saints narrative is an extrabiblical teaching that can't be supported with scripture.


There are two different things you are denying here. One is that there will be a remnant of Jews saved by their faith in Jesus and preserved by God during the Tribulation. The other is that there is such a thing as Tribulation saints.

First, if there are no such thing as Tribulation saints, who is Revelation 7 speaking of? Specifically:

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.


Do you believe that no one will be saved during the Tribulation?

Second, the narrative that there will be a remnant of Jews that will flee Jerusalem after the Abomination of Desolation and escape to Petra, where they will call on the name of Jesus Christ and be preserved by him for the balance of the Tribulation is one that is referenced throughout scripture. It's not something I made up. There are multiple references to it throughout Psalms, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Deuteronomy, Daniel, Zechariah, Matthew, Mark, the writings of Paul, Revelation and elsewhere. It is a MAJOR theme of scripture and you need to ignore huge swathes of the Bible to deny it.
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Re: US won't insist on a two-state solution in the Middle Ea

PostTue Mar 07, 2017 10:48 pm

As it stands - Israel is the most secular state in the world. And Israeli returnees are irreligious. Atheist. Religion? Something to be amused at.
As I predicted, Trump favours the one-state solution (gotta compliment myself as no one else will), which is the only practical, viable and strategically sound option nowadays. Gaddafi suggested it years ago btw.

Despite the small chance of success mainly due to this plan jeopardizing Israel's Jewish character, one positive might come out of this, that people in the dissident world will finally realize that Israel is not a secular country. Israel has no consitution yet, instead processing basic laws that will eventually be drafted into the final constitution probably once the Israelis got their hands on Jerusalem and the Temple Mount. These laws do not define Israel as a secular state (nor a religious one), and they most likely never will. A third of Israeli law is already Halakhah, and I'm willing to bet it will be completely Halakhah for Jewish people when Great Israel is restored, because the real Zionists' stakes are in the hands of the people of the Covenant, a pact with a god that seeks to reclaim his inheritance and a return to the throne of his temple, a temple destroyed shortly after God walked the Earth.
The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled is convincing the world he is God.
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Re: US won't insist on a two-state solution in the Middle Ea

PostWed Mar 15, 2017 6:52 am

Artful Revealer wrote:
As it stands - Israel is the most secular state in the world. And Israeli returnees are irreligious. Atheist. Religion? Something to be amused at.
As I predicted, Trump favours the one-state solution (gotta compliment myself as no one else will), which is the only practical, viable and strategically sound option nowadays. Gaddafi suggested it years ago btw.

Despite the small chance of success mainly due to this plan jeopardizing Israel's Jewish character, one positive might come out of this, that people in the dissident world will finally realize that Israel is not a secular country. Israel has no consitution yet, instead processing basic laws that will eventually be drafted into the final constitution probably once the Israelis got their hands on Jerusalem and the Temple Mount. These laws do not define Israel as a secular state (nor a religious one), and they most likely never will. A third of Israeli law is already Halakhah, and I'm willing to bet it will be completely Halakhah for Jewish people when Great Israel is restored, because the real Zionists' stakes are in the hands of the people of the Covenant, a pact with a god that seeks to reclaim his inheritance and a return to the throne of his temple, a temple destroyed shortly after God walked the Earth.


Do you think it would be fair to the Palestinians? They've been persecuted for around 60 years by the Israelis but now would have to live in a state controlled by them? How can anyone make sure that they would receive the same rights as the Israelis do and be treated like first-class citizens? I honestly don't think there is a solution for this and I've been trying to look for one for the past few years. I've lost hope at this point and I never thought I would.
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