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Hell

Philosophical and metaphysical/spiritual discussions non specific to religion.
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KoncreteMind

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Re: Hell

PostSun Feb 05, 2017 4:39 am

Karlysymon wrote:Ofcourse iam incapable of explaining the mechanics of such appearances but given what the Bible speaks about the state of the dead, any apparitions of dead people are demons, whether Marian or otherwise. And God, time and again warns us about consulting the dead. Here are some verses:


I hope Im not coming off harsh to you Karly. I wasnt testing you or seeing if you could explain something to my liking, but just genuinely asking for your view on it. Im just trying to take an extra step to keep things cordial because some told me that my views rub people the wrong way. I dont really care to be honest because beliefs are like a*holes you know? But I still like discussing things, especially when done amicably so I want to take the extra step to show those Im discussing with that even though we may agree or disagree, we can do so in peace. Anyways I personally do not believe it to be a demon because of what the ghost said:

16 Samuel said:

If the Lord has turned away from you and is now your enemy, don’t ask me what to do. 17 I’ve already told you: The Lord has sworn to take the kingdom from you and give it to David. And that’s just what he’s doing! 18 When the Lord was angry with the Amalekites, he told you to destroy them, but you didn’t do it. That’s why the Lord is doing this to you. 19 Tomorrow the Lord will let the Philistines defeat Israel’s army, then you and your sons will join me down here in the world of the dead.


I dont think a demon would come and tell Saul the truth, and reiterate what a prophet said to Saul whilst saying it in first person. But the option that it was a demon, cannot be closed even with this. Especially with those verses you posted being in the bible.

I already believe you and understood your perspective. You do not have to convince anyone. It was a great thing to bring it up and explore this angle of hell. Would have loved to have witnessed it though.... Like that study i brought up in my last post, all NDEs are pretty much similar....lots of light, heaven, hell etc and people get spiritual when they 'return'.


Imo theres a type of spirituality where its like: "Man I (almost)died! I need to get my life straight!" and theres the type of spirituality like Elijah who stopped rain, or "Jesus" who healed the sick. Lets just say, from what I seen, he was somewhere in the middle and not just a person who saw there life flash before their eyes and decided to turn their life around. It was like a completely different person who knew how to walk through life spiritually.

Instead of me continuing to go on about things that are anecdotal though, let me take it another route (if you want to continue to discuss this topic, if not just disregard. I wont mind). Me and you both believe God is control of all things right? So to you, what does it mean that He puts people who died or were near death through these things? Is there a lesson He is trying to teach? Or do you believe that its the work of demons? Honestly just looking for you take on it...
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Karlysymon

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Re: Hell

PostSun Feb 05, 2017 11:45 am

Koncrete Mind wrote:I hope Im not coming off harsh to you Karly. I wasn't testing you or seeing if you could explain something to my liking, but just
genuinely asking for your view on it. Im just trying to take an extra step to keep things cordial because some told me that my views rub people the wrong way. I dont really care to be honest because beliefs are like
a*holes you know? But I still like discussing things, especially when done amicably so I want to take the extra step to show those Im discussing with that even though we may agree or
disagree, we can do so in peace..

No no no no no! You didn't come across that way at all. On the contrary, while writing that line with mechanics, i constantly felt like i was being harsh, so my apologies. I have nothing against you at all.
....................let me take it
another route (if you want to
continue to discuss this topic, if not just disregard. I wont mind). Me and you both believe God is control of all things right? So to you, what does it mean that He puts people who died or were
near death through these
things? Is there a lesson He is
trying to teach? Or do you
believe that its the work of demons? Honestly just looking for your take on it...

Iam up to discuss whatever you want. Bring anything up and we'll hit the road. So here i go! i did a study on the 1st book of Samuel some years ago and honestly, at the end of it all, The story of Saul , for me, is the saddest in the bible. His life held such promise but he blew it all away. Yes, the witch of Endor conjured up Samuel who spoke of things to pass but in reality, he (the devil) wasn't saying anything new. Saul had been disobedient for a very long time and God simply left him to his ways (1 Samuel 15). The bible says God took His love away from him ( 2 Sam 7:15) and when that happened, God never spoke to him again and he was afflicted by the evil spirit. The prophet anoited David as king even though David waited 13yrs for that to happen. Saul was so desperate for guidance that he turned to the witch. Even Saul acknowledged his 'divorce' from God in verse 15 (you listed 16-19). Using your verses, we shouldn't underestimate the devil. There are things he sees that we cannot see. In contending with God about Job, he says
‘Does Job fear God for nothing?’ Satan replied. ‘Have you not put a hedge
around him and his household and everything he has?

We cannot see that hedge/protection but it is there.
He can deduce from what is available to tempt us but cannot see in future. Although what he said to Saul wasn't exactly news because since the anoiting of David there was silence from God and a lack of help. Therefore he was going to lose the war since God wasn't going to help. Foresight/the ability to see into the future is a prerogative of God. No one else has it. Isaiah 46:9-10 says
Remember the former things,
those of long ago;
I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.

And in thinking about this foresight matter, it is a good thing Satan doesn't have that ability nor the ability to read our minds. Do you know how hellish this life would be? It pretty much would be impossible to resist temptation because he would dangle all the temptations that silently run through our minds incessantly in our faces and lay the perfect trap. I hope i've explained that well.
Sorry this reply is getting quite long. Another thing that Saul's story lays bare is the desperacy or some kind of death people undergo when God walks away from their lives for good. Its a terrible thing, a hopeless life, real hell. Like a dead man walking. (Ive just realised this now in regard Saul, so thank you!). Satan entered Judas (matt 22:3) and later committed suicide like Saul. For the fallen archangel to take God's place in our lives isn't a small matter. Regarding this desperate situation, the prophet Amos speaks of the end times 8:11,12
The days are coming,’ declares the Sovereign Lord,
‘when I will send a famine
through the land –
not a famine of food or a thirst for water, but a famine of hearing the words of the Lord. 12 People will stagger from sea to sea
and wander from north to east, searching for the word of the Lord, but they will not find it.


doesn't that sound like what happened to Saul? The mediums will sure be raking in the greenbacks! Apparitions will be common place but it will all be demons having a field day. Scripture is very clear on the state of the dead so we don't get decieved.
As for your question why people die only to come back to life, in my christian walk, i've realised that God always shoots 10 birds with one stone. Inotherwords, His actions are multipurpose but for your question, the death and resurrection of Lazarus (John 11) helps answer it in the words of Christ
vs 14-15 and 41-42
So then he told them plainly, ‘Lazarus is dead, 15 and for your sake I am glad I was not there,so that you may believe. But let us go to him.’
...........
So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said,
‘Father, I thank you that you
have heard me. 42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.’

And people did believe. Finally, regarding the state of the dead in that same chapter
Jesus said to her, ‘Your brother will rise again.’ 24 Martha answered, ‘I know he will rise again in the
resurrection at the last day.’

even Martha in her day knew about a resurrection at the end of days. No craziness about going to heaven or hell at death. Jesus, Himself would have told her Lazarus is in heaven but theres none of that. He and Christ were best buds btw. Why would someone rise to life if they are alive in paradise or some hell hole already?Iam studying Kings now. Elisha raised the Shunnamite's son and i couldn't see any reason for the death and resurrection. Hopefully, the HolySpirit will show me with time. But the truth is these instances heavily impact the immediate characters. I hope that helps. Please pardon the insanely long post.
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Re: Hell

PostMon Feb 06, 2017 5:35 pm

No you're definitely fine. I've had complaints about me or my beliefs while Im sure you havent lol. I guess I was being overly cautious but glad to see we're on the same page in regards to that. Also dont feel bad of long posts either. Forgive me if Im wrong, but I think I remember reading one of your posts saying that the internet or this website is like a place where you can discuss things you cant really discuss in real life. Im in that same boat so I dont mind reading a person lay it out, and doing so myself. I like doing that with people who may agree or disagree with my beliefs. Its kinda how I challenge my own beliefs, because to me everyone sounds right in their own heads. So one of the ways I check myself, is by discussing with other people may believe similarly or differently and seeing how and why they may disagree with certain beliefs I hold true. I can do this in real life to a certain extent, but not as in depth as the internet. Sometimes I extend posts in length but if you dont mind than neither do I.

Anyways, I cant say that I disagree with alot of what you said. I agree that Saul was so desperate that he went to a witch for answers. I do agree that when satan/satanic things are in our life, it makes our lives worse than it would be without them/him being there. I do believe that satan can see things we cant like hedges of protection around believers (though I do think he can tempt us through people or things that we think about/desire the most). I also believe in the resurrection. I just dont think that Saul conjuring up the devil or a demon for answers, would give him the same truth that a prophet gave. I do believe demons can appear as loved ones, I just wonder why wouldnt the writer signify that it WASNT Samuel but was an angel/fallen angel appearing as Samuel? I mean If I think of it as me conjuring up a dead relative or friend for answers, I think it would be a demon that came (if anything came at all). But I also think that I wouldnt get truth from whatever I conjured up. I think whatever came (if it came at all) would lead me astray and not to the understanding that God wanted me to have. I had to go back and read as to why I brought this up in the first place and I see it was because you said the bible is clear about the state of the dead though with this story, I disagreed which is why I brought up the bible verse that said Samuel answered Saul and not a fallen angel/demon. My thinking leads me to "demon" but the writer didnt write that and instead wrote that it was Samuel and that Samuel told Saul what he already told him in the past. There were other places where angels of the lord were mentioned, and deceiving spirits were mentioned, but here, the writer says Samuel and only Samuel.

My question was about NDE's and how you incorporated what happens during them (bright light, heaven/hell/ loved ones) with God who is in control of all things. If I understood correctly, me and Thy Unveiling were discussing that visions happen when conscious. And my view is that a person/doctor declaring another person dead (through medical devices or pulses or simple eyesight) is different than God declaring a person dead. So maybe my friend was alive and nearing death in God's eyes (thus why he visioned himself in a "hell" and ceasing to exist) and was given a vision of his demise if he kept a certain path? On the flipside skeptic of me, maybe he was lying about the whole thing so that he could present hisself in a new way afterwards? To those who werent there, Im sure they'd turn to that. But for me, to see his change afterwards, I'd lean to it being real. As I said when I say "spiritual" its in the way closer to where Jesus said you could move mountains and do things more than he did, or where Elijah prayed for rain to not come and it didnt come. Not these things exactly, but things like it that lead me to believe that his vision of hell was real, thus that hell is real. The story is anecdotal to the 10000000000 degree but thats why I made sure to include that for my own experience, thats why I believe hell to be real.

With all that said, like Creeper, I believe earth is hell. I believe the devil being throw from HEAVEN, to EARTH, is like being thrown to HELL. And since science tells us that underneath the surface theres fire, I think thats the lake of fire. Maybe Im connecting dots that arent there, but it makes sense to me.
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Karlysymon

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Re: Hell

PostMon Feb 06, 2017 10:33 pm

Koncrete Mind wrote: I've had complaints about me or my beliefs while Im sure you
havent lol.

It is true i haven't or maybe i just didn't care to find out. Iam curious as to why you are so sure though.... You don't have to answer if you don't want to.
Forgive me if Im wrong, but I think I remember reading one of your posts saying that the internet or this website is like a place where you can discuss things you cant really discuss in real life. Im in that same boat so I dont mind reading a person lay it out, and doing so myself. I like doing that with people who may agree or disagree with my beliefs.

Yeah i said that and since we are kindred spirits, you know how hard life is. You can tell by my posts what interests me, and in my world, people similar to me are extremely rare. I don't use social networks either. So VCF and VF have been a life line for me.
Yeah, why did the writer state Samuel and not an evil spirit? We'll never know, i guess. But for me, the Bible is its own interpreter. There are countless verses, as i said before, on the state of the dead. And since all those verse unanimously state that the dead are dead, then its obvious it had to be an impersonation.
I just dont think that Saul conjuring up the devil or a demon for answers, would give him the same truth that a prophet gave.....I mean If I think of it as me conjuring up a dead relative or friend for answers, I think it would be a demon that came (if anything came at all). But I also think that I wouldnt get truth from whatever I conjured up. I think whatever came (if it came at all) would lead me astray and not to the understanding that God wanted me to have.

We shouldn't under estimate the arch enemy. He will use anything to bring us down. Even truth. Remember he tempted both Eve and Christ by using the word of God. Iam sure you have heard stories of dead people solving their own murders, or other crimes through apparitions ofcourse. Isn't truth revealed? Its devil's bait to hook us in. With perpetrators brought to justice. But the end result of all this, is that people involved in this become 'converted' and commune or consult the dead. Which, as a christian, God warns us against. A demon can tell you the shenanigans your best friend is up to right now. He can see them but you can't. Isn't that truth, if it brought to you? But it is all bait. Please lt me know what you think of this
http://whiteestate.org/books/gc/gc34.html
I think i too said that visions occur when one is conscious/ fully awake not at some point of death, when all consciousness is almost gone. And from the way you've narrated the story, i sense that individual had a real NDE inorder to exhibit profound change. I wasn't there but you have to look at motive. Why fake it? What was there to gain from the fakery?
And since science tells us that underneath the surface theres fire, I think thats the lake of fire. Maybe Im connecting dts that arent
there, but it makes sense to me.

True but for me, that lake of fire will be a real hell after the millenium. When Christ returns, the living wicked will die and their bodies will litter the earth, from one end to another. Its is also why birds are called to a feast. (Rev 19:21, Jeremiah 25:33, Isaiah 34:3-4)
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Re: Hell

PostWed Feb 08, 2017 6:08 pm

Karlysymon wrote:It is true i haven't or maybe i just didn't care to find out. Iam curious as to why you are so sure though.... You don't have to answer if you don't want to.


A couple of birdies told me that that was the case. One here, a couple on the old boards that just got shut down. So I've been treading lightly when it comes to being polite when saying my beliefs, With that said, my beliefs will remain my beliefs no matter how anyone else takes them but it doesnt hurt to improve in the manner I present them...

Yeah i said that and since we are kindred spirits, you know how hard life is. You can tell by my posts what interests me, and in my world, people similar to me are extremely rare. I don't use social networks either. So VCF and VF have been a life line for me.

Yeah, why did the writer state Samuel and not an evil spirit? We'll never know, i guess. But for me, the Bible is its own interpreter. There are countless verses, as i said before, on the state of the dead. And since all those verse unanimously state that the dead are dead, then its obvious it had to be an impersonation.

We shouldn't under estimate the arch enemy. He will use anything to bring us down. Even truth. Remember he tempted both Eve and Christ by using the word of God. Iam sure you have heard stories of dead people solving their own murders, or other crimes through apparitions ofcourse. Isn't truth revealed? Its devil's bait to hook us in. With perpetrators brought to justice. But the end result of all this, is that people involved in this become 'converted' and commune or consult the dead. Which, as a christian, God warns us against. A demon can tell you the shenanigans your best friend is up to right now. He can see them but you can't. Isn't that truth, if it brought to you? But it is all bait. Please lt me know what you think of this
http://whiteestate.org/books/gc/gc34.html
I think i too said that visions occur when one is conscious/ fully awake not at some point of death, when all consciousness is almost gone. And from the way you've narrated the story, i sense that individual had a real NDE inorder to exhibit profound change. I wasn't there but you have to look at motive. Why fake it? What was there to gain from the fakery?


Same for me Karly. I also like mixing it up with people who believe the complete opposite of me. Its how I challenge my own views because imo, everyone's beliefs sounds right in their own heads. One of my good friends is atheist, and I like talking to him about things, because he challenges everything I believe and it kinda makes me go deeper in evaluating my beliefs

Also with your explanation of demons telling truths to sucker people in, I cant say that I disagree. But since the writer of Samuel alluded to evil spirits existing in an earlier chapter, Im not sure why he would leave it to another writer, thousands of years later to clear up the point that it wasnt Samuel but was an evil spirit. Its like if Moses wrote "thou shalt not kill" and later James came and said: "No, it wasnt thou shalt kill but thou shalt not MURDER". Of course the two can be reconciled, but if there was a word for murder in Moses' time, and thats what he knew it to meant, my belief is thats what he would have used instead of leaving it open to James to close the deal. Of course this is a hypothetical.My point in a long roundabout way, was that imo considering this story in itself paints it as Samuel and not an evil spirit, that the bible isnt very clear about what the dead. Combine that verse in Samuel, with the transfiguration of Jesus which had Elijah and Moses appearing, as well as Jesus being resurrected (bodily) and being taken to heaven (in the body)and I think the picture is muddied up even further. Then theres also the fact that the disciples gave credence to reincarnation. But Im speaking from my own perspective as a person who has found SOME type of truth in every religion and doesnt think any ONE book has ALL the answers we need for salvation/understanding/wisdom etc... Some people believe the bible is all we need and as it was originally written, we have today. I doubt this, but dont knock the belief...


In regards to my friend, I think that a doctor saying someone is dead (which is what he went by when he told me he was clinically dead) is completely different than being dead to God. So thats why I said maybe it was a vision. Its like in Matthew 9 where people came and told Jesus that a girl had died and he said no shes just sleeping. I think its similar in NDE where to man, the people are dead, but not to God. So in the case of my friend, MAYBE, not that it was, but MAYBE that was the case in the sense that the doctors declared him dead (just like the people in Matthew 9) but to God, he was not (Jesus: "Shes sleeping not dead). Thus, a vision occurred of him being taken to hell or a place of fire. But anyways, how you do incorporate God into NDE's? As in, since He is in control of all, what is the purpose for putting people through (fake?) visions/experiences? Do you feel like He's trying to teach a lesson, warn them, or is it Him allowing demons to play tricks on people? Im not sure what your position is on NDE's, but I assume you do not put much stock in them or consider them wishy washy (i.e. depends on the person/situation of the NDE). I couldnt honestly find a motive for him lying about the experience since he didnt really go into the world and start acting like he was the messiah or anything (around me at least). But maybe he wanted to reinvent himself as something new instead of the way his life was going at the time? Idk for sure but thats plausible too. I moved away and kinda lost touch but at the end of the day, it did open my eyes up to there being more to life than what I was being led to believe in that time. Not only in regards to society, but it opened up a world of spirituality beyond what I was told through christianity growing up.

True but for me, that lake of fire will be a real hell after the millenium. When Christ returns, the living wicked will die and their bodies will litter the earth, from one end to another. Its is also why birds are called to a feast. (Rev 19:21, Jeremiah 25:33, Isaiah 34:3-4)


No disagreement here.
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Karlysymon

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Re: Hell

PostThu Feb 09, 2017 10:32 pm

Koncrete Mind wrote:My point in a long roundabout way, was that imo considering this story in itself paints it as Samuel and not an evil spirit, that the
bible isnt very clear about what the dead. Combine that verse in Samuel, with the
transfiguration of Jesus which had Elijah and Moses appearing, as well as Jesus being resurrected (bodily) and being taken to heaven (in the body) and I think the picture is muddied up even further. Then theres also the fact that the disciples gave credence to reincarnation. But Im speaking from my own perspective as a person who has found SOME type of truth in every religion and doesnt think any ONE book
has ALL the answers we need
for salvation/understanding/
wisdom etc... Some people believe the bible is all we need and as it was originally written, we have today. I doubt this, but dont knock the belief...


Personally, Christianity is sufficient for me. At thos point in my life, I frankly don't have the energy and time to invest in 'hunting down' other truths. Given that a new religion pops every other decade with truth. I will acquaint myself with other faiths to gain an understanding and where 'they' are coming from.
There is a tv show that i loved alot that aired on Fox: Fact or Fiction. And the series featured alot of supernatural themed stories. Many of them revolving around dead people helping the living in one way or another. I would come away wondering why God would forbid contacting the dead if so much good could come from from it. I examined the matter with all available verses and everyday logic (if dead people can come back to torment the living, why aren't the spirits of the hundreds of chickens, cows, goats, lambs,etc that we've devoured over the years return to torment us? Would the men who work in the abattoirs even maintain a sane existence under such torment? Iam sure they have a goodnight's sleep every day) and came to the conclusion that i did. And i think you should thoroughly investigate the matter and draw a conclusion that rests with your person. Regarding the transfiguration, we both know Elijah was translated and there is some evidence for Moses' resurrection in Jude 9. Why would Micheal and the devil dispute over his body if it was going to stay in the ground for ages? It would then mean it wasn't a spirit but Moses in the flesh.

But anyways, how you do
incorporate God into NDE's? As in, since He is in control of all, what is the purpose for putting people through (fake?) visions/experiences? Do you feel like He's trying to teach a lesson, warn them, or is it Him allowing demons to play tricks on people? Im not sure what your position is on NDE's, but I assume you do not put much stock in them or consider them wishy washy (i.e. depends on
the person/situation of the NDE)

I do believe in NDEs but it just doesn't make sense to me that God waits to bring someone to a point of death inorder to overwhelm them with visions of hell or heaven. When it can be done while they are alive and kicking. I think a lesson would be more like it than a warning, since hell doesn't exist as per popular belief. We all are afraid of losing our lives, so it would make more sense if someone straightened out their lives once they find out they were almost dead.
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Re: Hell

PostSat Feb 11, 2017 4:27 am

Karlysymon wrote:
Personally, Christianity is sufficient for me. At thos point in my life, I frankly don't have the energy and time to invest in 'hunting down' other truths. Given that a new religion pops every other decade with truth. I will acquaint myself with other faiths to gain an understanding and where 'they' are coming from.


There is a danger when one stops when they find something they are comfortable with believing. I think there is ALOT more to the bible than christianity lets on, and alot more to the one most call Jesus than it lets on, but to each their own of course.

There is a tv show that i loved alot that aired on Fox: Fact or Fiction. And the series featured alot of supernatural themed stories. Many of them revolving around dead people helping the living in one way or another. I would come away wondering why God would forbid contacting the dead if so much good could come from from it. I examined the matter with all available verses and everyday logic (if dead people can come back to torment the living, why aren't the spirits of the hundreds of chickens, cows, goats, lambs,etc that we've devoured over the years return to torment us? Would the men who work in the abattoirs even maintain a sane existence under such torment? Iam sure they have a goodnight's sleep every day) and came to the conclusion that i did. And i think you should thoroughly investigate the matter and draw a conclusion that rests with your person.


My position isnt much different than yours. I believe if I was to contact a dead relative, it would be a demon that would seek to lead me astray. My only point was that the writer of the book of Samuel, who knew about evil spirits, wrote that it was Samuel and only Samuel that appeared to Saul. So while some may read something from another writer thousands of years later that causes them to rearrange it from Samuel to someone else, I do not. So at the end of the day, to each our own. Theres no problem in seeing things differently and discussing those differences amicably. So thank you for that :)

Regarding the transfiguration, we both know Elijah was translated and there is some evidence for Moses' resurrection in Jude 9. Why would Micheal and the devil dispute over his body if it was going to stay in the ground for ages? It would then mean it wasn't a spirit but Moses in the flesh.


My only point was that the bible isnt exactly 100% crystal clear about what happens after death. Moses being seen with Elijah and Jesus (imo) while the bible says there is ONE resurrection exemplifies that. Then theres the disciples of Jesus asking about reincarnation.

I do believe in NDEs but it just doesn't make sense to me that God waits to bring someone to a point of death inorder to overwhelm them with visions of hell or heaven. When it can be done while they are alive and kicking. I think a lesson would be more like it than a warning, since hell doesn't exist as per popular belief. We all are afraid of losing our lives, so it would make more sense if someone straightened out their lives once they find out they were almost dead.


Personally I think being near death, and seeing a vision of heaven/hell would have more impact on a person and their willingness to change, then a person who is alive and healthy having the same visions. Its like one almost dies and gets to see where he or she is headed and that causes that one to change rather than one just having a vision out of nowhere in their day to day, then coming out of it and being faced with the same scenario they were before the vision.. But my position has been if God is control of all, than that includes these NDE's that have people seeing visions of heavens/hells. So if He is allowing them to see these visions there must be SOMETHING that He wants them to take out of it. That is, if they're telling the truth about these things. But I know Im sounding like a broken record so if you have nothing to add, maybe we can let the topic breathe and let others jump in if we didnt overdo it ourselves lol. If you do have something to add, or wish to continue, we can do that as well. Either way, I appreciate the conversation
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Re: Hell

PostSat Feb 11, 2017 4:14 pm

KoncreteMind wrote:
Personally I think being near death, and seeing a vision of heaven/hell would have more impact on a person and their willingness to change, then a person who is alive and healthy having the same visions. Its like one almost dies and gets to see where he or she is headed and that causes that one to change rather than one just having a vision out of nowhere in their day to day, then coming out of it and being faced with the same scenario they were before the vision.. But my position has been if God is control of all, than that includes these NDE's that have people seeing visions of heavens/hells. So if He is allowing them to see these visions there must be SOMETHING that He wants them to take out of it.


How would you explain someone who is not Christian like me, but has had two NDE's both showing heaven, bliss and angels then?

Deceptions by Satan? I mean obviously they didn't turn me into a Christian but only reassured me that the afterlife is a peaceful place. And there truckloads of stories like mine on the web. Lots of people who had near death experiences didn't turn Christian.
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Re: Hell

PostSat Feb 11, 2017 10:36 pm

Koncrete Mind wrote:My only point was that the bible isn't exactly 100% crystal clear about what happens after death. Moses being seen with Elijah and Jesus (imo) while the bible says there is ONE resurrection exemplifies that.

I on the other hand believe otherwise, that the Bible has gone to great lengths to lay out this subject as it is because of the serious implications of 'living dead'. People who contact their dead loved ones later on make them their first go-to source for the future events and counsel. Taking the place of God. Later on, many deify them, breaking the 1st commandment. The bible is our defence against this kind of deception. Christ, Himself sealed the deal and was in agreement with earlier writers in John 5:28,29
“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all
who are in their graves will
hear his voice 29 and come out —those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

As for Samuel, in the 15th chapter of the 1st book
Until the day Samuel died, he did not go to see Saul again, though Samuel mourned for him. And the Lord regretted that he had made Saul king over Israel.

as you are aware, this happened some 13yrs before Saul died. If God, through Samuel never spoke to Saul till the prophet died. Why would God, through a dead 'Samuel' give Saul counsel? Iam sure David heard of that incident. Why didn't he ever conjure up the prophet who anoited him?
As for the one resurrection, iam assuming you are talking about a mass resurrection because Christ rose and countless others with Him. There are actually two 'mass' resurrections. When Christ returns, the righteous dead will come to life but the wicked dead will not because they can neither live in heaven nor earth because it will become uninhabitable.
Revelation 20:4-6
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been
given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not
received its mark on their
foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first
resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

We can run with the conversation till it runs out of gas. These kinds of discussions make one see things anew and one even learns something. Same thing with my conversation with Loki. So thank you! Honestly. If we hadn't run with it, i'd never have learned that tidbit about Saul that i mentioned earlier. We can agree to disagree. At the end of the day, we will all stand singly before God to account for our actions. But i hope to see you on that sea of glass! Really.
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Re: Hell

PostSun Feb 12, 2017 7:31 am

[quote="Karlysymon"]
I on the other hand believe otherwise, that the Bible has gone to great lengths to lay out this subject as it is because of the serious implications of 'living dead'. People who contact their dead loved ones later on make them their first go-to source for the future events and counsel. Taking the place of God. Later on, many deify them, breaking the 1st commandment. The bible is our defence against this kind of deception. Christ, Himself sealed the deal and was in agreement with earlier writers in John 5:28,29
[quote]

But deifying Christ is not a problem for a God who demands only He is worshiped? I recall several verses in the Bible in which Christ clearly says He is the Son of God, not God. Yet loads of people place Him before God or pray to God through Him. Why is that acceptable?
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