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Is Our Brain All We Are?

Philosophical and metaphysical/spiritual discussions non specific to religion.
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Loki

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Re: Is Our Brain All We Are?

PostMon Feb 06, 2017 4:36 pm

This got me thinking about computers.

Heart - Energy/Electricity.
Brain - Memory and Processor.

The heart has to beat for the brain to be alive, not the other way round.

The PC needs electricity/energy for the processor to start working.

What turned on first in the baby? It's heart? Or - it's brain?

We know from biology that the heart of a baby is beating while the brain is still developing in the womb.


Right, so by my beliefs I don't necessarily think that a baby is (for lack of a better term) a "person" until the brain is developed. They are a living, breathing organism, but are they an individual with thoughts and feelings yet? I don't think so. Of course, that's a very bleak and detached way of looking at the miracle of life, and not necessarily one I endorse under any normal circumstances, but just for the sake of this conversation.

If the soul is real, and that is where our consciousness comes from (we are our souls, hosting ourselves in our body, specifically the brain, but not ultimately limited to it) then it could potentially be the case that a fetus doesn't have a soul in it until the brain is fully developed and "occupied" (again, for lack of a better term).

Of course, that sort of thinking has issues, like what about babies who are essentially born brain dead? What happened there? It's hard to justify spiritually, and not fun to talk about.

Brain transplant would be unethical due to the idea that our brains carry "memories". If successful, the host would not be "Himself" anymore, according to neurologists. I'm not sure I agree, but their propagation has merit.


I mean, I'm sure you're right and it would be unethical, and I get that, but... If the host (or new body for the brain) is already brain dead and that brain was removed and mine was put into that body, would I still be me, just in a different body? That alone is a weird concept to grapple with, but I think that it would be the case. Perhaps more likely though, is that people whose bodies were destroyed or left useless will have their brains transplanted to organically manufactured bodies (another strange concept, and possibly not possible, I'm not smart enough or knowledgeable enough to know honestly) or perhaps robotic bodies that they are then able to control. They would still technically be themselves (I think), just with a new vehicle.

Do you separate consciousness from your soul? Or do you believe they are one and the same?


I'm honestly not decided on this. I like to believe the soul exists, as it's a more comforting thing to believe and the concept of it makes sense to me, but whether or not the soul truly does exist I'm not entirely sure. However, assuming that it does, it seems logical to me that our soul is our consciousness, thus, out of body experiences make sense as we are somehow detaching ourselves from our vehicle and wandering a limitless plane of existence. Same with the afterlife and ghosts, a soul makes those things possible, as well as something like reincarnation (which I'm far more skeptical of than these other concepts personally).
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"We all are to some extent [agnostic]... So yes, I'm an 'agnostic', in as much as I don't actually know what happens when I die. I choose to operate under the assumption that God does not exist. I have no need for God in my life, the concept of a 'God' feels incredibly made up to me. It is not requisite for my every day living. For some people it is. They are 'theistic agnostics,' I am an 'atheistic agnostic.'" - Cara Santa Maria
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Re: Is Our Brain All We Are?

PostMon Feb 06, 2017 4:43 pm

Loki wrote:
This got me thinking about computers.

Heart - Energy/Electricity.
Brain - Memory and Processor.

The heart has to beat for the brain to be alive, not the other way round.

The PC needs electricity/energy for the processor to start working.

What turned on first in the baby? It's heart? Or - it's brain?

We know from biology that the heart of a baby is beating while the brain is still developing in the womb.


Right, so by my beliefs I don't necessarily think that a baby is (for lack of a better term) a "person" until the brain is developed. They are a living, breathing organism, but are they an individual with thoughts and feelings yet? I don't think so. Of course, that's a very bleak and detached way of looking at the miracle of life, and not necessarily one I endorse under any normal circumstances, but just for the sake of this conversation.

If the soul is real, and that is where our consciousness comes from (we are our souls, hosting ourselves in our body, specifically the brain, but not ultimately limited to it) then it could potentially be the case that a fetus doesn't have a soul in it until the brain is fully developed and "occupied" (again, for lack of a better term).

Of course, that sort of thinking has issues, like what about babies who are essentially born brain dead? What happened there? It's hard to justify spiritually, and not fun to talk about.


That's my point though - the brain cannot be alive without the heart - the heart is created first and then the brain in the body.

So - the brain is subservient to the heart - not the other way round.

If this pattern is set in the womb - and continues through birth, into infancy and then into adulthood - it is enough for me to realise that the brain is only a processor and memory bank - the heart is the will, driving force - energy.

Brain transplant would be unethical due to the idea that our brains carry "memories". If successful, the host would not be "Himself" anymore, according to neurologists. I'm not sure I agree, but their propagation has merit.


Loki wrote:I mean, I'm sure you're right and it would be unethical, and I get that, but... If the host (or new body for the brain) is already brain dead and that brain was removed and mine was put into that body, would I still be me, just in a different body? That alone is a weird concept to grapple with, but I think that it would be the case. Perhaps more likely though, is that people whose bodies were destroyed or left useless will have their brains transplanted to organically manufactured bodies (another strange concept, and possibly not possible, I'm not smart enough or knowledgeable enough to know honestly) or perhaps robotic bodies that they are then able to control. They would still technically be themselves (I think), just with a new vehicle.


Thoughts like that make me uncomfortable - I'm kinda squeemish and i'm a visual person so lol. But yeah, I did read what you wrote and agree it's definitely an amusing, if troubling thought.

Do you separate consciousness from your soul? Or do you believe they are one and the same?


Loki wrote:I'm honestly not decided on this. I like to believe the soul exists, as it's a more comforting thing to believe and the concept of it makes sense to me, but whether or not the soul truly does exist I'm not entirely sure. However, assuming that it does, it seems logical to me that our soul is our consciousness, thus, out of body experiences make sense as we are somehow detaching ourselves from our vehicle and wandering a limitless plane of existence. Same with the afterlife and ghosts, a soul makes those things possible, as well as something like reincarnation (which I'm far more skeptical of than these other concepts personally).


So, you believe in a life after death then?

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Re: Is Our Brain All We Are?

PostMon Feb 06, 2017 5:08 pm

That's my point though - the brain cannot be alive without the heart - the heart is created first and then the brain in the body.

So - the brain is subservient to the heart - not the other way round.

If this pattern is set in the womb - and continues through birth, into infancy and then into adulthood - it is enough for me to realise that the brain is only a processor and memory bank - the heart is the will, driving force - energy.


Well yeah, I'm sure that the human body works as a single unit, but I just don't think that that proves that our consciousness has anything to do with our heart; it only proves that we initially need a heart to get everything going. Like I said, we can remove our heart and replace it with something foreign and still go on living mostly normally. If removing our heart resulted in becoming someone else, or if it were impossible to remove our heart without our brain dying then I might agree more, but it seems pretty clear that the heart is just an organ that is necessary to pump blood to the rest of our body, brain included. Without it we just need a replacement to do the same thing. Without our brain, we are nothing.

For example, if you are pronounced brain dead (a persistent vegetative state) that means that there is no longer any neurons firing in your brain, all true functions of your brain have ceased, however, your heart and other organs can continue pumping and functioning, but are you truly alive if you aren't conscious? Without your brain working then you cease to exist in a sense, even if the rest of your body hasn't followed suit.

So, you believe in a life after death then?


I like to believe in it, I'm just not entirely sure of it. It's by far the more appealing option, and there has always been a strong part of me that believes in, or really wants to believe in, ghosts which would be roaming, trapped, or visiting souls/spirits. But until I actually witness the afterlife or am presented with matter-of-fact evidence of it's existence I don't know that I can truly believe in it; more so that it is something I'd like to believe and hope is the case (unless of course the Christian Bible is totally accurate because in that case the afterlife for me will likely suck).
This message brought to you by My Brain, courtesy of My Fingers.

"We all are to some extent [agnostic]... So yes, I'm an 'agnostic', in as much as I don't actually know what happens when I die. I choose to operate under the assumption that God does not exist. I have no need for God in my life, the concept of a 'God' feels incredibly made up to me. It is not requisite for my every day living. For some people it is. They are 'theistic agnostics,' I am an 'atheistic agnostic.'" - Cara Santa Maria
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Re: Is Our Brain All We Are?

PostMon Feb 06, 2017 5:21 pm

Loki wrote:
That's my point though - the brain cannot be alive without the heart - the heart is created first and then the brain in the body.

So - the brain is subservient to the heart - not the other way round.

If this pattern is set in the womb - and continues through birth, into infancy and then into adulthood - it is enough for me to realise that the brain is only a processor and memory bank - the heart is the will, driving force - energy.


Well yeah, I'm sure that the human body works as a single unit, but I just don't think that that proves that our consciousness has anything to do with our heart; it only proves that we initially need a heart to get everything going. Like I said, we can remove our heart and replace it with something foreign and still go on living mostly normally. If removing our heart resulted in becoming someone else, or if it were impossible to remove our heart without our brain dying then I might agree more, but it seems pretty clear that the heart is just an organ that is necessary to pump blood to the rest of our body, brain included. Without it we just need a replacement to do the same thing. Without our brain, we are nothing.

For example, if you are pronounced brain dead (a persistent vegetative state) that means that there is no longer any neurons firing in your brain, all true functions of your brain have ceased, however, your heart and other organs can continue pumping and functioning, but are you truly alive if you aren't conscious? Without your brain working then you cease to exist in a sense, even if the rest of your body hasn't followed suit.


We are in agreement then :)

I believe that in the Semitic faith traiditons, it is taught that thought begins with the heart and to purify the intention of your heart so the mind can obey ones higher calling.

The problem with literalists is that they follow the word, too literally.

In ancient times, the word "heart" had many more applied meanings than todays day and age where the word "heart" can mean only a few things, one being the actual muscle, another being courage, another being will, another being love... and one other - which relates to "memory".

For example, I've often written on this and other forums "Muslims have been committing the Qur'an to heart for over a millenia"...

I'm only speaking of the modern uderstanding of the word.

The Semitic Faith traiditons use the word "heart" interchangeably with "brain" - but not with "mind".

Yes, it can be confusing to the uninitiated, but those who can determine the root applicatives of the Semitic languages and study the scriptures in context can easily see that what you have written thus far in this thread - is ironically - more in tune with the Semitic understanding than otherwise.

Strange huh? :)

So, you believe in a life after death then?


Loki wrote:I like to believe in it, I'm just not entirely sure of it. It's by far the more appealing option, and there has always been a strong part of me that believes in, or really wants to believe in, ghosts which would be roaming, trapped, or visiting souls/spirits. But until I actually witness the afterlife or am presented with matter-of-fact evidence of it's existence I don't know that I can truly believe in it; more so that it is something I'd like to believe and hope is the case (unless of course the Christian Bible is totally accurate because in that case the afterlife for me will likely suck).


Your honesty is endearing mashaAllah.

I believe in life after death, and I have no "empirical proof". There was a time when I required it. I now find other proofs which sit better with my essence/soul/consciousness. My heart is at ease when I believe, when I do not - I am at a loss.

So I choose to believe, because now it is natural to do so for me.

Of course, this thread is not about the proof of an afterlife so I won't elaborate too much on that comment, however if you are curious as to what I mean, God willing I will explain.

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Re: Is Our Brain All We Are?

PostMon Feb 06, 2017 10:36 pm

Great convo. I will answer you both. There is a true story that emphasised to me that the heart is more than just a pump and that we are so complex, its crazy. There was a 40yr old lady who 'was in' for a heart transplant. A new heart arrived, it belonged to an 18yr old had just died in a motorbike accident. He had also just eaten chicken nuggets and had some beer aswell. The lady's operation went ahead and was a success. When she awoke, she was asked what she would love to eat and she asked for those two things! She was so suprised at herself because she never used to drink alcohol. The 18yr old was also a dancer. Weeks later, her friends would comment on her gait, unusual for a 40 something. The changes were astounding and she couldn't rest till she found out who her donor was. That story has stuck with me since and i've always wondered at the science behind that occurance. His heart immediately sent a request to her brain about what she desired to eat. And it was the last thing the guy had eaten. And how did that last meal get 'lodged/logged' in the heart. The cholesterol? Questions i've asked myself ever since. Do any of you personally know people who've had heart transplants hence exhibiting unusual stuff? I don't. May be we can all investigate. So, i wouldn't be suprised at all if that happened with a brain transplant. Although, the change, i suppose, wouldn't be so great because the heart holds the reins. If that isn't an isolated case, and it is common place, is it ethical? If not, then i guess the brain transplant shouldn't be.
The other thing is the Pineal gland. I've always wondered why God communicates when we are asleep, through dreams. The gland secretes Melatonin,the sleep hormone and its also where amino acids related to higher consciousness interact. What is creepy though is that much of the fluoride we take ends up in the pineal gland and calcifies it.
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Re: Is Our Brain All We Are?

PostMon Feb 06, 2017 10:47 pm

Karlysymon wrote:Great convo. I will answer you both. There is a true story that emphasised to me that the heart is more than just a pump and that we are so complex, its crazy. There was a 40yr old lady who 'was in' for a heart transplant. A new heart arrived, it belonged to an 18yr old had just died in a motorbike accident. He had also just eaten chicken nuggets and had some beer aswell. The lady's operation went ahead and was a success. When she awoke, she was asked what she would love to eat and she asked for those two things! She was so suprised at herself because she never used to drink alcohol. The 18yr old was also a dancer. Weeks later, her friends would comment on her gait, unusual for a 40 something. The changes were astounding and she couldn't rest till she found out who her donor was. That story has stuck with me since and i've always wondered at the science behind that occurance. His heart immediately sent a request to her brain about what she desired to eat. And it was the last thing the guy had eaten. And how did that last meal get 'lodged/logged' in the heart. The cholesterol? Questions i've asked myself ever since. Do any of you personally know people who've had heart transplants hence exhibiting unusual stuff? I don't. May be we can all investigate. So, i wouldn't be suprised at all if that happened with a brain transplant. Although, the change, i suppose, wouldn't be so great because the heart holds the reins. If that isn't an isolated case, and it is common place, is it ethical? If not, then i guess the brain transplant shouldn't be.
The other thing is the Pineal gland. I've always wondered why God communicates when we are asleep, through dreams. The gland secretes Melatonin,the sleep hormone and its also where amino acids related to higher consciousness interact. What is creepy though is that much of the fluoride we take ends up in the pineal gland and calcifies it.


I'm about to leave work, so I can't say much. Luckily I've not known anybody who has had to have a heart transplant, nor really anyone with heart problems. That's an interesting story though. In my opinion, the food thing could be answered just by the bacteria and internal flora that was attached to the young man's heart. Our bodies contained billions of micro organisms and they are what is responsible for our cravings. Typically you hear about them mostly in the gut, but I imagine they could exist in our other organs as well, perhaps just to lesser degrees. As for her gait, that's impossible to know I suppose. Perhaps there is more to it than what meets the eye.

If you are getting into all of that sort of thing though, we should talk about people who hit their head and suddenly know a new language or can only walk backwards. Where does that shit come from?

Have a good evening guys!
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"We all are to some extent [agnostic]... So yes, I'm an 'agnostic', in as much as I don't actually know what happens when I die. I choose to operate under the assumption that God does not exist. I have no need for God in my life, the concept of a 'God' feels incredibly made up to me. It is not requisite for my every day living. For some people it is. They are 'theistic agnostics,' I am an 'atheistic agnostic.'" - Cara Santa Maria
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Re: Is Our Brain All We Are?

PostTue Feb 07, 2017 4:10 am

I will say though that the soul is to the heart what the mind is to the brain. Therefore, if the brain/heart shut down, so does the mind/soul. Hence, apart from a physical body resurrection, i do not believe in life after death.

Loki wrote:If you are getting into all of that
sort of thing though, we should talk about people who hit their head and suddenly know a new language or can only walk backwards. Where does that shit come from?

That is all brain territory. Once it is affected, other bodily functions are affected too. Iam no doctor so have no definate answers. Even doctors/scientists cannot figure out the cause of Foreign Accent Syndrome.
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Re: Is Our Brain All We Are?

PostWed Feb 08, 2017 12:03 am

The heart - yes, the heart - also 'helps create thoughts'.
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Re: Is Our Brain All We Are?

PostWed Feb 08, 2017 1:41 pm

Am I the only one who thought of the 'brain in a jar' theory when I read the thread title?

I think we are the sum of all our parts and the soul is in every part of our body. The brain is like the hub, due to all the signals being sent to and coming from the brain, but we kind of have a 'second brain' in our guts and there is an argument for the heart being the centrepiece due to its pumping oxygen throughout the body. Basically, all the different parts serve a specific function and they all work together to make up an organism and keep it alive. Even the lifeform in and of itself isn't all that it is, because it also has an effect on the world around it and often works as part of a larger community and is a part of the universe as a whole.

I would like to recommend a book called "the biology of belief" by Bruce Lipton, because he touches on a lot of this. I have recommended it to people before.

The most intense and primal sense and the first to develop is the sense of touch. This sense works on a purely reactionary basis, giving sensations of pleasure and pain resulting in an almost immediate response. If you think about the skin of a cell (the cell membrane), they don't have eyes or complex brains, they pick up on chemical signals in their environment and react accordingly, going towards good places with all the nutrients they need or fleeing from perceived dangers and toxic environments. The receptors on a creatures cell membranes, which pick up on the chemicals in the surrounding environment, are in unique patterns to the invididual, which is why people who have organ transplants pick up some of the feelings and habits of the donor. So the cells are just receivers of information following built in responses. The interesting thing is that the brain starts forming from a fold of skin and behaves in an almost identical pattern, receiving all the information and reacting with the most appropriate response. The subconscious controls most of your actions and decision making, but its responses can be modified with some effort to change its learned patterns of behaviour. Basically, every living thing works like a radio receiver that is tuned into a specific frequency. So the real question is, are we the biological equipment that recieves the signal or the signal itself?
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Re: Is Our Brain All We Are?

PostWed Feb 08, 2017 4:10 pm

You're ready for al ghazali bro creeper :)

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I have nothing to do with any recommendations to join any war on any person , race or community. I do not support ISIS nor any other movement, I seek opportunities to unite mankind, I seek to look at common ground and choose to ignore differences. I do not support violence, I condemn it. I have no affiliations with any promoting of violence be it political, racial or religious.
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