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Armageddon!

Theological and spiritual discussions within the context of a religious framework.
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Karlysymon

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Re: Armageddon!

PostSat Mar 18, 2017 9:58 pm

Thunderian wrote:I just don't see God using the
same symbol for Christ's chaste virgin bride as he uses for fallen
and immoral institutions like
Israel and the Roman Catholic
church.

You didn't answer my question. Did Christ die for a virgin or an ordinary woman? Eph 5 says nothing about a bride. It clearly says "He gave up Himself for her". When Christ died on the cross, what was "her" status? And you keep saying the Church existed after Christ. So who was she that He was dying for?
In regard to Joseph's dream (iam sure you re-read the chapter). Why does Jacob say the moon represents his mother. Yet, in the end, she never made it to Egypt? As i said before, the dream was a foreshadowing of Joseph's glory. Jacob may not have known it at the time but in a way, God was telling him that he would see his son again. The dreams were also meant to 'cushion' Joseph in the difficult times that he would endure. (Iam speaking from experience in this case). To give him hope that the hell he would endure for 13yrs wouldn't last forever. He had the dreams at 17. Continuing to use Joseph's dream doesn't help in explaining the 12 stars in the woman's crown. Besides, they were 11 stars bowing to one star.
If Jesus Christ is the bridegroom, who is the bride and remember the bride of Christ is a chaste virgin..

You are correct. The church is. And what does scripture say about the 144,000? "These are those who didn't defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure.... No lie was found in their mouths: they are blameless" Rev 14:4-5. In chap 15, they were victorious over the beast, his image and the number of his name. How do we know they are the same group spoken of here? They sing the song of Moses and the Lamb. Remember in chap 14, no one could learn that song except them (vs 3). They are around during the tribulation because the emerge triumphant. How is it possible that no one else can learn a song? A simple song? Care to elaborate on this? Only 'chaste virgins' are going to heaven (psalm 15:1-5, Heb 12:14)
And what about all the prophecy regarding Israel's
revival as a nation in the End
Times? There's kind of a lot.

Israel as it is in M:E has no bearing in eschatology. Since Christ ascended, everyone has been given time to come to Christ. When that time expires, that's it. Revival of Israel as a nation, never going to happen. Someone once said, if you are waiting for the entire church to be revived, that time will never come! If that can be true for my local church, same would go for Israel. Christ said "I have other sheep that 1en't of this sheep pen. I must bring them also" john 10:16. Those prophecies, i believe are about Spiritual Israel: you, me and the christian jew. Symbolised by the Laodicean church. A revival has to happen to make ready a people for the Lord. Thats why He said He would send the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the Lord (Malachi 4:5). Clearly a translated Elijah isn't going to return to earth to revive a Middle eastern nation of Israel. As you know, Elijah's ministry was about revival, as was that of John the Baptist. Christ isn't returning until such a work has been done.
Yes, you would be wrong. Noah
and his family are not part of
the Church. If they were, why
did Noah offer sacrifices? As the
Church, Jesus Christ is our
sacrifice. If Noah or anyone else in the Old Testament were part
of the Church, what were their
sacrifices for?

Fine. If iam wrong, let me ask you this. When Elijah thought he was the only one left on God's side, God told him i have 7000 who haven't bowed the knee to Baal. Imagine you are narrating that story to your son, how would you describe that group or any other group that has pledged allegiance to God? If you say "people on God's side", how do we call "people on God's side in our day"?
How can the Church be an
adulterous woman and also a
chaste virgin?

God is willing to overlook and wipe away our spiritual adultery if we are willing to repent. I already explained what spiritual chastity is in regard to 144, 000. The Holy Spirit has to produce that condition in us. Aren't we supposed to die to sin and be born again? As though we have never been defiled by sin? Sanctification (to be made holy) is a life long work.
I believe there will be no rapture. Christ is coming to resurrect the righteous dead and redeem the living righteous. Is righteousness worn as garment. Can you tell your pastor is righteous just by him standing before you? I gave you more that 2 verses. Christ is coming with His angels, always depicted as dressed in white/linen. Rev 19 clearly stated that the white raiment means righteousness. "Abraham believed and it was credited to him righteousness".

Where can I find that part about
12 spiritual tribes in the Bible?

It isn't there. Its only logical. If ancient Israel was made up of 12 tribes then it goes to show that spiritual Israel would be made up of 12 spiritual tribes, to which 144,000 belong. And they are chaste!
Angels are righteous. Hence they were white linen.
As for Rev 12, lemme put it this way: the dragon gave the sea beast his power, throne and authority and men worshipped the dragon because of that beast (Rev 13:2, 4). The earth beast exercised all its authority on behalf of the sea beast. So these two entities are doing the drago's bidding. Same as Nero. Even if Herod wasn't roman, he did Satan's bidding and existed in the Roman epoch.
Just wanted to say, thanx for the converstion (not that its ending) but i've ended up examining and going down roads i never thought i would go. Thank you and God bless!
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Thunderian

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Re: Armageddon!

PostSun Mar 19, 2017 8:41 am

Karlysymon wrote:
Thunderian wrote:I just don't see God using the
same symbol for Christ's chaste virgin bride as he uses for fallen
and immoral institutions like
Israel and the Roman Catholic
church.

You didn't answer my question. Did Christ die for a virgin or an ordinary woman?


Christ died for us. When we accept his sacrifice, we become a part of the Church, which is always portrayed symbolically as Christ's virgin bride, because of the righteousness he imparts to us at salvation.

Eph 5 says nothing about a bride. It clearly says "He gave up Himself for her".


The passage is talking about a husband and wife, and likening their relationship to the one between Christ and the Church. How do you not see that the image of a betrothed couple is consistent with how Christ and the Church are portrayed in the Bible? The passage literally says that Christ and the Church are husband and wife. Is my wife not also my bride?

When Christ died on the cross, what was "her" status? And you keep saying the Church existed after Christ. So who was she that He was dying for?


As I said, Jesus Christ died for us. There is no unbelieving body that encompasses all unbelievers that is represented by a woman in the Bible. There was the future Church, but there was no "her" that we were all part of before his death on our behalf. Remember Romans 5:8 - But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Anyone who believes in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ becomes part of the Church. A person could not be a member of the Church before Christ's death and resurrection because the offer of salvation through Christ's atoning sacrifice had not yet been made to sinners.

In regard to Joseph's dream (iam sure you re-read the chapter). Why does Jacob say the moon represents his mother.


Joseph's father says, when he hears of the dream:

What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?

Yet, in the end, she never made it to Egypt?


He clearly says the moon is Joseph's mother. I don't know what else to say.

As i said before, the dream was a foreshadowing of Joseph's glory. Jacob may not have known it at the time but in a way, God was telling him that he would see his son again. The dreams were also meant to 'cushion' Joseph in the difficult times that he would endure. (Iam speaking from experience in this case). To give him hope that the hell he would endure for 13yrs wouldn't last forever. He had the dreams at 17. Continuing to use Joseph's dream doesn't help in explaining the 12 stars in the woman's crown. Besides, they were 11 stars bowing to one star.


The eleven stars are Joseph's eleven brothers. Joseph is the twelfth star. There are twelve tribes of Israel, each named after one of Israel's sons.

No one on earth interprets this passage the way you are doing now. It is universally accepted as a prophecy of the nation of Israel, which began with Jacob and his twelve sons, bowing down to one of the sons, Joseph. This is fulfilled a few chapters later in Genesis. How can you say it is anything other than what it clearly is?

Remember that the dream was paired with another one:

7 For, behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and, lo, my sheaf arose, and also stood upright; and, behold, your sheaves stood round about, and made obeisance to my sheaf.
8 And his brethren said to him, Shalt thou indeed reign over us? or shalt thou indeed have dominion over us? And they hated him yet the more for his dreams, and for his words.


Is one dream interpreted as meaning Joseph will have dominion over his brothers, the nation of Israel, and the other one means something completely different? Joseph's eleven brothers see themselves as sheaves bowing down to him. Joseph's father sees himself, his wife and his eleven other sons as the sun, moon and stars bowing down to Joseph, who is also represented by a star. Can you please just admit that the image of the sun, moon and stars is that of Israel, his wife (even though she's dead) and his sons?

If Jesus Christ is the bridegroom, who is the bride and remember the bride of Christ is a chaste virgin..

You are correct. The church is. And what does scripture say about the 144,000? "These are those who didn't defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure.... No lie was found in their mouths: they are blameless" Rev 14:4-5. In chap 15, they were victorious over the beast, his image and the number of his name. How do we know they are the same group spoken of here? They sing the song of Moses and the Lamb.


The 144,000 have the name of the Father written on their foreheads. If they are the Church, and the bride of Christ, why do they have his Father's name written on them?

The ones in chapter 15 sing the song of Moses, which would be the law, and the song of the Lamb, which is Christ's salvation. Why would the Church sing both these songs? I say it's because, during the Tribulation, salvation will be by faith in Christ's death, and in keeping the law of Moses. Why do you think they are singing these two songs?

Remember in chap 14, no one could learn that song except them (vs 3).


It's three different songs. The song that no one can learn is sung by the 144,000, but the songs sung in Revelation 15 we do know, because we are told what they are: the song of Moses and the song of the Lamb.

And what about all the prophecy regarding Israel's
revival as a nation in the End
Times? There's kind of a lot.

Israel as it is in M:E has no bearing in eschatology.


This is manifestly untrue.

Prophecy tells us that in the End Times there will be a regathering of Jews to the land of Israel. (Deuteronomy 30:3; Isaiah 43:6; Ezekiel 34:11-13; 36:24; 37:1-14) There is no doubt this is being fulfilled at this time. Not only have the Jews become the physical, literal nation of Israel again, they are back in the land that was theirs 2000 years ago, they are again in possession of the city of Jerusalem, and today, there are more Jews living in Israel then there are living elsewhere. This is ancient prophecy come true before our very eyes. If this is not a fulfillment of these prophecies, what do these prophecies mean?

And these are not obscure verses that were retroactively interpreted to justify Israel's "occupation" of Palestine. The rebirth of the nation of Israel in their land exactly as is happening now is something that prophecy scholars have been looking for since Jerusalem was sacked in 70AD. As years went by and Israel was still scattered, it gave rise to the heresy that the Church is the inheritor of Israel's promises.

We are told the antichrist will make a 7-year covenant of peace with Israel (Isaiah 28:18; Daniel 9:27). If Israel is no longer in the picture, what is Daniel talking about? Who does the antichrist make peace with?

The Bible says the Temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem during the Tribulation. (Daniel 9:27; Matthew 24:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4; Revelation 11:1) Why would it be? If Israel doesn't exist, and Christians have no use for a Temple, what is the point of building it?

Finally, God tells us that Israel will eventually recognize Jesus as their Messiah (Zechariah 12:10). Israel will be regenerated, restored, and regathered (Jeremiah 33:8; Ezekiel 11:17; Romans 11:26). If the Church is Israel, why does it need to recognize Christ and be regenerated, restored and regathered? How is it that a body made up of believers in God, as you agree the Church is, is still depicted as rejecting Christ and needing to be redeemed? Are we not in Christ already, redeemed by his blood?

Revival of Israel as a nation, never going to happen.


How can you say that when Israel is, at this moment, a revived nation? More seriously, how can you say that when God himself has said it would happen?

Someone once said, if you are waiting for the entire church to be revived, that time will never come! If that can be true for my local church, same would go for Israel.


I don't understand this. The Church doesn't need revival. Churches might, but THE Church is sanctified and made righteous already by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We can't lose that. Israel doesn't currently have the spirit of God, but God promises that she will again one day, that she will be revived.

Christ said "I have other sheep that 1en't of this sheep pen. I must bring them also" john 10:16. Those prophecies, i believe are about Spiritual Israel: you, me and the christian jew.


So can the sheep in the pen and the other sheep both be Israel? The sheep in the pen were Israel. The other sheep are the Gentiles. Believing Jews can be part of the other flock, but the Church is never in the Jewish pen.

Symbolised by the Laodicean church. A revival has to happen to make ready a people for the Lord. Thats why He said He would send the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the Lord (Malachi 4:5). Clearly a translated Elijah isn't going to return to earth to revive a Middle eastern nation of Israel.


Really?

Revelation 11:

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.


The two witnesses are Moses and Elijah.

Malachi 4:

4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:


Both were present at Christ's transfiguration, which is a picture of his second advent. The descriptions of their works match. Elijah stopped the rain for three and half years (or a thousand two hundred and threescore days, the length of the Great Tribulation). Moses turned water to blood and brought plagues down. Both stood before the "God" of the earth.

And the place where our Lord was crucified is Jerusalem, the capital of Israel, so clearly a translated Elijah IS going to return to earth to revive a Middle eastern nation of Israel.

As you know, Elijah's ministry was about revival, as was that of John the Baptist. Christ isn't returning until such a work has been done.


I agree about Elijah, but John the Baptist preached repentance. Either way, Christ is not returning until Elijah's work is done. And just so you know, I believe the 144,000 witnesses will do their work during the first half of the seven-year Tribulation, then be translated, and Moses and Elijah will tag in for the last three and half years.

Yes, you would be wrong. Noah
and his family are not part of
the Church. If they were, why
did Noah offer sacrifices? As the
Church, Jesus Christ is our
sacrifice. If Noah or anyone else in the Old Testament were part
of the Church, what were their
sacrifices for?

Fine. If iam wrong, let me ask you this. When Elijah thought he was the only one left on God's side, God told him i have 7000 who haven't bowed the knee to Baal. Imagine you are narrating that story to your son, how would you describe that group or any other group that has pledged allegiance to God? If you say "people on God's side", how do we call "people on God's side in our day"?


People on God's side today are the Church. People on God's side before the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ were not, because, as I have said, the Church was not instituted until Christ died and rose again. I would call people on God's side before the Church was instituted "believers".


How can the Church be an
adulterous woman and also a
chaste virgin?

God is willing to overlook and wipe away our spiritual adultery if we are willing to repent.


Do you believe we can lose our salvation?


Aren't we supposed to die to sin and be born again? As though we have never been defiled by sin? Sanctification (to be made holy) is a life long work.


In Christ, we are sanctified. We strive to live a sanctified life because we are still subject to the temptations of the flesh, but our souls are cut away from our flesh by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and the holiness imparted to us at salvation cannot be lost.

I believe there will be no rapture.


That's OK. I believe you still qualify for it. :grin:

Christ is coming to resurrect the righteous dead and redeem the living righteous. Is righteousness worn as garment. Can you tell your pastor is righteous just by him standing before you?


Yes, righteousness is worn as a garment, as we are told in Revelation 19, but we don't become clothed in righteousness until we are raptured and are with Christ. The righteousness of the saints is the wedding dress of the bride of Christ.

Christ is coming with His angels, always depicted as dressed in white/linen. Rev 19 clearly stated that the white raiment means righteousness. "Abraham believed and it was credited to him righteousness".


Revelation 19:7 - Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Revelation 19:14 - And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.


If clean, white linen is the righteousness of the saints and the clothing of the bride of Christ in verses 7 and 8, what makes you think it's the clothing of the angels in verse 14? I'm not disputing that angels are righteous or that anyone else could be clothed in white, but in this particular passage, how do we get from saints to angels?

Where can I find that part about
12 spiritual tribes in the Bible?


It isn't there. Its only logical. If ancient Israel was made up of 12 tribes then it goes to show that spiritual Israel would be made up of 12 spiritual tribes, to which 144,000 belong.


Why do you get to infer things from scripture, and I have to use verses and stuff? I still haven't seen you quote a single verse that says the Church has become spiritual Israel.

And they are chaste!


That doesn't make them the Church! :grin:

Angels are righteous. Hence they were white linen.


They do wear white linen, but Revelation 19 doesn't mention angels. Only the bride of Christ and the saints.

As for Rev 12, lemme put it this way: the dragon gave the sea beast his power, throne and authority and men worshipped the dragon because of that beast (Rev 13:2, 4). The earth beast exercised all its authority on behalf of the sea beast. So these two entities are doing the drago's bidding. Same as Nero. Even if Herod wasn't roman, he did Satan's bidding and existed in the Roman epoch.


Are the events of Revelation 12 something that has happened already, or something that is still to come?

Just wanted to say, thanx for the converstion (not that its ending) but i've ended up examining and going down roads i never thought i would go. Thank you and God bless!


Thanks and God bless you, too! I haven't gone this deeply into these topics for a long time. It's been very rewarding for me as well.
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Karlysymon

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Re: Armageddon!

PostMon Mar 20, 2017 9:51 pm

Thunderian wrote:There is no unbelieving body
that encompasses all
unbelievers that is represented
by a woman in the Bible. There
was the future Church, but there was no "her" that we were all
part of before his death on our
behalf.

Thank you for your reply. Iam curious. What do you make of this prophecy by Jeremiah: chap 51 that parallels John's prophecy: Rev 18 ? Especially vs 6-9, 45-50 in Jeremiah. Rev 18:24 is like word for word Jer 51:49-50. Why would God blame her for everyone's (the fallen) death? I will throw this one in aswell Matthew 23: 34-36.
The eleven stars are Joseph's
eleven brothers. Joseph is the
twelfth star. There are twelve
tribes of Israel, each named after one of Israel's sons. No one on earth interprets this
passage the way you are doing
now. It is universally accepted
as a prophecy of the nation of
Israel, which began with Jacob
and his twelve sons, bowing down to one of the sons,
Joseph. This is fulfilled a few
chapters later in Genesis. How
can you say it is anything other
than what it clearly is?

Iam not going to lie to you but its the first time iam 'hearing' this. Never before (and i do have a grip on theologies of various religions) have i come across that interpretation: that Joseph's dream explains the woman of Rev 12 and that it is present day Israel. Iam not saying you are wrong, Just because it is universally accepted doesn't make it correct. More than a billion catholics adhere to teachings that aren't biblically sound. Numbers don't necessarily make something right or wrong. In Elijah's time, the 7000 that hadn't bowed the knee to Baal had every right to doubt God since everyone else was on Baal's side.
Is one dream interpreted as
meaning Joseph will have
dominion over his brothers, the
nation of Israel, and the other
one means something completely different?........... Can you please just admit
that the image of the sun, moon
and stars is that of Israel, his
wife (even though she's dead) and his sons?

Iam not denying that his dreams were obviously what they turned out to be at the end of Genesis. Scripture actually says that having the same dream twice (Joseph and Pharoah) means its definately going to happen.
Gen 41:32~ "the reason the dream was given to Pharoah in two forms is that the matter has been firmly decided by God and God will do it soon."
My only qualm is using the 'celestial dream' to explain Rev 12. Or to claim that it is a prophecy of present day Israel in the Middle East.
The 144,000 have the name of
the Father written on their
foreheads. If they are the
Church, and the bride of Christ,
why do they have his Father's
name written on them?

*Christ purchased men for God (Rev 5:9)
*The Father reconciled all things to Himself through Christ (Colossians 1:19-20)
*All I have is Yours and all You have is Mine (John 17:10)
The ones in chapter 15 sing the
song of Moses, which would be
the law, and the song of the
Lamb, which is Christ's
salvation. Why would the
Church sing both these songs? I say it's because, during the
Tribulation, salvation will be by
faith in Christ's death, and in
keeping the law of Moses. Why
do you think they are singing
these two songs?

Songs are forms of praise. And again, its the first time iam coming across someone saying they are two different songs (yes Scripture says the song of Moses and the song of the Lamb) but in the next verses we are given the 'lyrics'. Now, to which song do they belong?
As for the 'third' song in Rev 14. I believe it is the song of their experience. We learn songs all the time but the fact that it cannot be learned by anyone else means that it is an experience. I cannot learn/understand someone else's experience unless i have gone through it. Other saints cannot learn it too. Only the 144,000. Pretty special group.

Prophecy tells us that in the End
Times there will be a
re gathering of Jews to the land
of Israel. (Deuteronomy 30:3;
Isaiah 43:6; Ezekiel 34:11-13; 36:24; 37:1-14) There is no
doubt this is being fulfilled at
this time. Not only have the
Jews become the physical,
literal nation of Israel again,
they are back in the land that was theirs 2000 years ago, they
are again in possession of the
city of Jerusalem, and today,
there are more Jews living in
Israel then there are living
elsewhere. This is ancient prophecy come true before our
very eyes. If this is not a
fulfillment of these prophecies,
what do these prophecies
mean?
And these are not obscure verses that were retroactively
interpreted to justify Israel's
"occupation" of Palestine. The
re birth of the nation of Israel in
their land exactly as is
happening now is something that prophecy scholars have
been looking for since Jerusalem
was sacked in 70AD.

Thank you for the verses and i read a little more on each. Many people use them and many others as 'prophecy fulfilled' but happily omit what happens after that regathering. And let us not forget that every time Israel went into exile was because of spiritual adultery.
Exodus 30:6, Ezekiel 34:25-28, 37:14. All these talk about spiritual revival. God renews the heart, He circumcises it, he turns people to Himself. Where is the evidence that Israel's regathering was because of contrition? Where is that evidence in Israel right now, a godly nation? Mind you, it will be 70yrs next year since 1948, the same amount of time Israel spent in exile under Nebuchadnezzer (Jer 27:22, Dan 9:1-3), where is the spiritual revival that accompanies the regathering? You might say, it will happen when this and that happens but Scripture seems pretty clear on the issue. (The average televangelist never talks about it and iam just discovering it now through this conversation.....thank you!)
All we get are reports of growing numbers of religious-nones or atheists:
according to an international
Gallup poll, Israel is now one of
the world’s least religious countries. Nearly two-thirds of the Israelis
polled either described
themselves as not religious, or
convinced atheists. Fifty-seven
percent of Israelis described
themselves as non-religious, while 8% said they were
convinced atheists. Just 30%
described themselves as
religious. This makes Israel less religious
than Japan (62%), Germany
(59%), Switzerland (58%) and
South Korea (55%). The Jewish
state was neck-and-neck with
the U.K. and the Netherlands, which both had a 66% non-
religious population.
https://www.algemeiner.com/2015/04/21/p ... countries/
and
http://haaretz.com/jewish/news/new-poll ... s-1.459477


It is true that those verses pertained to those times that Israel went into exile but not to what happened in 1948. The gospel is open to everyone and Israel as nation lost the priviledge or favour (Zech 11:10). I know our God is a patient God but even His patience has its limits and from what i can see, if Physical Israel is spiritual Israel, an exile is certainly on the horizon.

We are told the antichrist will
make a 7-year covenant of
peace with Israel (Isaiah 28:18;
Daniel 9:27). If Israel is no
longer in the picture, what is Daniel talking about? Who does
the antichrist make peace with?
The Bible says the Temple will
be rebuilt in Jerusalem during
the Tribulation. (Daniel 9:27;
Matthew 24:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4; Revelation 11:1) Why
would it be? If Israel doesn't
exist, and Christians have no use
for a Temple, what is the point
of building it?

Daniel was quoted by Christ and as we see in Matt 24, it would be fulfilled in 70ad when the Romans entered the temple and later destroyed it. (i will discuss Isaiah 28 with you in the future)
I believe the 3rd Temple will not be rebuilt because it something that is un necessary since we already became the church, remember. Here's why. All the talk about the temple is mainly about resurrecting the sacrificial system. They've got the Sanhedrin together, a red heifer is in the works, they are hunting down Cohens (apparently people with that last name carry Levite blood/dna)....i mean why do we need this? Even on the last board we discussed this (it was Lisa's thread) and i said that pressing foward with this temple stuff is a direct denial of Christ and His work. Is someone actually sits down and thinks it through, its the ultimate conclusion. Why are American televangelists, especially, supporting Israel in this? At His death, the curtain in the temple was rent in twain, ending the sacrificial system. Why do these people want to bring it back? Said system was in place to foreshadow and constantly remind the Jews of what Christ would do for humanity. If or when it is re-instated, what would be the point? What would God want to teach us through that system? If you claim that they need a house of worship, they have more synagogues than they could ever need to serve as houses of worship. It is a terrible thing to trample the Son of God underfoot and treat His blood as an unholy thing (Heb 10:29).

Finally, God tells us that Israel will eventually recognize Jesus
as their Messiah (Zechariah
12:10). Israel will be
regenerated, restored, and
regathered (Jeremiah 33:8;
Ezekiel 11:17; Romans 11:26). If the Church is Israel, why does it
need to recognize Christ and be
regenerated, restored and
regathered? How is it that a
body made up of believers in
God, as you agree the Church is, is still depicted as rejecting
Christ and needing to be
redeemed? Are we not in Christ
already, redeemed by his blood?

I already answered part this and asked several questions of you.
Like i said, sanctification is a lifelong work. We die to sin everyday, not once.
I said :Revival of Israel as a
nation, never going to
happen.
You said: How can you say that when
Israel is, at this moment, a
revived nation? More seriously,
how can you say that when God
himself has said it would
happen?

Are we talking a physical or spiritual revival here. And i meant spiritual in that quote. I touched on that earlier.
The
Church doesn't need revival.
Churches might, but THE Church
is sanctified and made righteous
already by the indwelling of the
Holy Spirit. We can't lose that.

so lemme see if i understand you correctly. Above all churches, there is a some kind of super-church. Composed of those whose names are in the book of like, right?
So can the sheep in the pen and
the other sheep both be Israel?
The sheep in the pen were
Israel. The other sheep are the
Gentiles. Believing Jews can be
part of the other flock, but the Church is never in the Jewish
pen.

Christ clearly said 'i must bring them also'. They all have to be in one pen, under one sheperd.
The bible clearly explains the two witness are two olive trees and two lampstand. So how can you say its Moses and Elijah? Even though they were with Christ at the transfiguration (pre-figuring the saints who will be resurrected and the living saints who will be translated), they finished their life's work and aren't going to descend from heaven to take on another work. Besides, there is precedent in the Bible of something like that happening.
Do you believe we can lose our
salvation?

I will use an illustration. If you bought your son an icecream cone and placed it on the table, he will choose to either take it up and eat it or just walk by and ignore it. That is what Christ did. He did His part and bought us redemption. It is up to us to reach out and take it by faith ofcourse. Its already there for the taking. Losing salvation isn't like losing car keys. It is a perpetual act to remain stunted and not grow in Christ. Heb 5:11-6:1-8. Especially vs 8. So it amounts to rejection, right?
Why do you get to infer things
from scripture, and I have to use
verses and stuff? I still haven't
seen you quote a single verse
that says the Church has become
spiritual Israel.

Please read this
https://jaysanalysis.com/2016/10/09/the ... t-zionism/
Are the events of Revelation 12
something that has happened
already, or something that is
still to come?

Those events already happened.
............................
pardon the delay.
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Re: Armageddon!

PostFri Mar 24, 2017 5:57 am

Karlysymon wrote:
Thunderian wrote:There is no unbelieving body
that encompasses all
unbelievers that is represented
by a woman in the Bible. There
was the future Church, but there was no "her" that we were all
part of before his death on our
behalf.

Thank you for your reply. Iam curious. What do you make of this prophecy by Jeremiah: chap 51 that parallels John's prophecy: Rev 18 ? Especially vs 6-9, 45-50 in Jeremiah. Rev 18:24 is like word for word Jer 51:49-50. Why would God blame her for everyone's (the fallen) death? I will throw this one in aswell Matthew 23: 34-36.


Those passages seem to deal with the judgement of Babylon at Christ's return. I need to go over them when I have a clearer head and have some presentable thoughts. :smile:

The eleven stars are Joseph's
eleven brothers. Joseph is the
twelfth star. There are twelve
tribes of Israel, each named after one of Israel's sons. No one on earth interprets this
passage the way you are doing
now. It is universally accepted
as a prophecy of the nation of
Israel, which began with Jacob
and his twelve sons, bowing down to one of the sons,
Joseph. This is fulfilled a few
chapters later in Genesis. How
can you say it is anything other
than what it clearly is?

Iam not going to lie to you but its the first time iam 'hearing' this. Never before (and i do have a grip on theologies of various religions) have i come across that interpretation: that Joseph's dream explains the woman of Rev 12 and that it is present day Israel. Iam not saying you are wrong, Just because it is universally accepted doesn't make it correct. More than a billion catholics adhere to teachings that aren't biblically sound. Numbers don't necessarily make something right or wrong. In Elijah's time, the 7000 that hadn't bowed the knee to Baal had every right to doubt God since everyone else was on Baal's side.


I don't necessarily follow what everyone says, but the symbolism of the sun, moon and stars just lines up so neatly, don't you think? I mean, if they represent Israel in Genesis, it stands to reason they would mean Israel is Revelation, too. Books don't generally change symbolic meaning from chapter to another.

If a person doesn't want the woman to represent Israel -- if, for instance, it butted up against their interpretation of another part of the Bible -- then I guess they are forced to interpret that passage in a way that doesn't make as much sense.

Is one dream interpreted as
meaning Joseph will have
dominion over his brothers, the
nation of Israel, and the other
one means something completely different?........... Can you please just admit
that the image of the sun, moon
and stars is that of Israel, his
wife (even though she's dead) and his sons?

Iam not denying that his dreams were obviously what they turned out to be at the end of Genesis. Scripture actually says that having the same dream twice (Joseph and Pharoah) means its definately going to happen.
Gen 41:32~ "the reason the dream was given to Pharoah in two forms is that the matter has been firmly decided by God and God will do it soon."
My only qualm is using the 'celestial dream' to explain Rev 12. Or to claim that it is a prophecy of present day Israel in the Middle East.


The passage in Genesis isn't a prophecy of present day Israel. It's just the source of the symbols for Israel is Revelation 12.

The 144,000 have the name of
the Father written on their
foreheads. If they are the
Church, and the bride of Christ,
why do they have his Father's
name written on them?

*Christ purchased men for God (Rev 5:9)
*The Father reconciled all things to Himself through Christ (Colossians 1:19-20)
*All I have is Yours and all You have is Mine (John 17:10)


All will be reconciled to Christ, but only the Church is his bride. The 144,000 aren't part of the Church. I just don't buy the 12 tribes that they come from as being spiritual tribes of the Church. That's JW territory. (Whenever we run into JW's, my wife asks them which tribe they are from. They don't come to our door anymore.)

The ones in chapter 15 sing the
song of Moses, which would be
the law, and the song of the
Lamb, which is Christ's
salvation. Why would the
Church sing both these songs? I say it's because, during the
Tribulation, salvation will be by
faith in Christ's death, and in
keeping the law of Moses. Why
do you think they are singing
these two songs?

Songs are forms of praise. And again, its the first time iam coming across someone saying they are two different songs (yes Scripture says the song of Moses and the song of the Lamb) but in the next verses we are given the 'lyrics'. Now, to which song do they belong?
As for the 'third' song in Rev 14. I believe it is the song of their experience. We learn songs all the time but the fact that it cannot be learned by anyone else means that it is an experience. I cannot learn/understand someone else's experience unless i have gone through it. Other saints cannot learn it too. Only the 144,000. Pretty special group.


The lyrics that we see are about Jesus, so they are part of the song of the Lamb.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the 144,000.

Do you see, though, how you keep coming against the wall that has been put up by the belief that the Church has replaced Israel? The woman in Revelation 12 can't be Israel (even though the symbols are plain to see), because God is finished with her. The saints must be from the Church (even though the Bible says they are from the 12 tribes of Israel), because God is done with the Jews. Replacement theology causes a LOT of problems when studying prophecy. I don't say this to make fun of you, but I just don't understand sticking with something that is found nowhere in scripture and makes understanding God's word so hard. Once you accept that God is not finished with Israel -- which is what God plainly tells us throughout the Bible -- everything just clicks.

Prophecy tells us that in the End
Times there will be a
re gathering of Jews to the land
of Israel. (Deuteronomy 30:3;
Isaiah 43:6; Ezekiel 34:11-13; 36:24; 37:1-14) There is no
doubt this is being fulfilled at
this time. Not only have the
Jews become the physical,
literal nation of Israel again,
they are back in the land that was theirs 2000 years ago, they
are again in possession of the
city of Jerusalem, and today,
there are more Jews living in
Israel then there are living
elsewhere. This is ancient prophecy come true before our
very eyes. If this is not a
fulfillment of these prophecies,
what do these prophecies
mean?
And these are not obscure verses that were retroactively
interpreted to justify Israel's
"occupation" of Palestine. The
re birth of the nation of Israel in
their land exactly as is
happening now is something that prophecy scholars have
been looking for since Jerusalem
was sacked in 70AD.

Thank you for the verses and i read a little more on each. Many people use them and many others as 'prophecy fulfilled' but happily omit what happens after that regathering. And let us not forget that every time Israel went into exile was because of spiritual adultery.


I feel like I have said this before, but I need to say it again. Israel is still an unbelieving nation. Their regathering is absolutely in line with prophecy, but has to do with where God wants them, not where they have put themselves.

Exodus 30:6, Ezekiel 34:25-28, 37:14. All these talk about spiritual revival. God renews the heart, He circumcises it, he turns people to Himself. Where is the evidence that Israel's regathering was because of contrition? Where is that evidence in Israel right now, a godly nation?


There is no evidence of this because they are not contrite nor are they godly. I swear I made this clear earlier. Their redemption is years away. Their rebirth and gathering right now is for God's purposes and no one else's.

Mind you, it will be 70yrs next year since 1948, the same amount of time Israel spent in exile under Nebuchadnezzer (Jer 27:22, Dan 9:1-3), where is the spiritual revival that accompanies the regathering? You might say, it will happen when this and that happens but Scripture seems pretty clear on the issue. (The average televangelist never talks about it and iam just discovering it now through this conversation.....thank you!)
All we get are reports of growing numbers of religious-nones or atheists:


Be careful not to conflate verses about the regathering with verses about their redemption. The Bible says there will be a generation between their rebirth and their redemption. Depending on which generation God was referring, to it could be another 30 years before Israel is reconciled to God.

I just want to be clear. Israel is right now in unbelief. Don't mistake my love for prophecy about Israel with support of their godlessness. I love the Lord. He is the one who gets the glory from fulfilled prophecy.

It is true that those verses pertained to those times that Israel went into exile but not to what happened in 1948. The gospel is open to everyone and Israel as nation lost the priviledge or favour (Zech 11:10). I know our God is a patient God but even His patience has its limits and from what i can see, if Physical Israel is spiritual Israel, an exile is certainly on the horizon.


Once again, spiritual Israel will be the physical nation of Israel when it turns to God as prophesied. They are being gathered out of their exile in preparation for their redemption.

We are told the antichrist will
make a 7-year covenant of
peace with Israel (Isaiah 28:18;
Daniel 9:27). If Israel is no
longer in the picture, what is Daniel talking about? Who does
the antichrist make peace with?
The Bible says the Temple will
be rebuilt in Jerusalem during
the Tribulation. (Daniel 9:27;
Matthew 24:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4; Revelation 11:1) Why
would it be? If Israel doesn't
exist, and Christians have no use
for a Temple, what is the point
of building it?

Daniel was quoted by Christ and as we see in Matt 24, it would be fulfilled in 70ad when the Romans entered the temple and later destroyed it. (i will discuss Isaiah 28 with you in the future)


When John wrote Revelation, the temple had already been destroyed, so he must have been talking about a future temple. We have been over this already, I think. There are attendant prophecies that show the Tribulation to be a future event.

Daniel 12:

4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.
...
9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.


From the time of the Abomination of Desolation to the end of days will be three and a half years. This is also the amount of time that God protects the woman in Revelation 12 who escapes Jerusalem after the abomination. It is also the amount of time given for the ministry of the two witnesses, whose ministry''s end coincides with the return of Jesus Christ and the battle of Armageddon. It is also the time given for the 144,000 witnesses to spread the word of God.

I believe the 3rd Temple will not be rebuilt because it something that is un necessary since we already became the church, remember. Here's why. All the talk about the temple is mainly about resurrecting the sacrificial system. They've got the Sanhedrin together, a red heifer is in the works, they are hunting down Cohens (apparently people with that last name carry Levite blood/dna)....i mean why do we need this?


It's for the Jews. We won't be here.

Even on the last board we discussed this (it was Lisa's thread) and i said that pressing foward with this temple stuff is a direct denial of Christ and His work. Is someone actually sits down and thinks it through, its the ultimate conclusion. Why are American televangelists, especially, supporting Israel in this? At His death, the curtain in the temple was rent in twain, ending the sacrificial system. Why do these people want to bring it back? Said system was in place to foreshadow and constantly remind the Jews of what Christ would do for humanity. If or when it is re-instated, what would be the point? What would God want to teach us through that system? If you claim that they need a house of worship, they have more synagogues than they could ever need to serve as houses of worship. It is a terrible thing to trample the Son of God underfoot and treat His blood as an unholy thing (Heb 10:29).


I can't speak for the Hagee crowd, but I think you may be mistaking the celebration of God's fulfilled prophecy with support for what is prophesied. The rebirth of Israel, whether you agree with the legitimacy of the state of Israel or not, is a fulfillment of God's word and should be cause for his praise. Likewise, the preparations for the rebuilding of the temple are a sign that God's word is truth, and that he is coming again soon!

If God prophesies that something will happen, does it matter if it's good or bad? The point is that God said it would take place, and lo, it does. Is every prophecy in the Bible that has come true something that we think is good? Does it have to be, for us to praise God for his word? There are many prophecies in the Bible, including the scourging, humiliation and death of Jesus Christ, that we can only look at and say, how great thou art, oh Lord, for thy word is TRUTH!


Finally, God tells us that Israel will eventually recognize Jesus
as their Messiah (Zechariah
12:10). Israel will be
regenerated, restored, and
regathered (Jeremiah 33:8;
Ezekiel 11:17; Romans 11:26). If the Church is Israel, why does it
need to recognize Christ and be
regenerated, restored and
regathered? How is it that a
body made up of believers in
God, as you agree the Church is, is still depicted as rejecting
Christ and needing to be
redeemed? Are we not in Christ
already, redeemed by his blood?

I already answered part this and asked several questions of you.
Like i said, sanctification is a lifelong work. We die to sin everyday, not once.


Living a sanctified life is daily, but being sanctified by Christ happens once. What questions did I not answer?

I said :Revival of Israel as a
nation, never going to
happen.
You said: How can you say that when
Israel is, at this moment, a
revived nation? More seriously,
how can you say that when God
himself has said it would
happen?

Are we talking a physical or spiritual revival here. And i meant spiritual in that quote. I touched on that earlier.


The Bible says that Israel will first be revived physically, then spiritually.

The
Church doesn't need revival.
Churches might, but THE Church
is sanctified and made righteous
already by the indwelling of the
Holy Spirit. We can't lose that.

so lemme see if i understand you correctly. Above all churches, there is a some kind of super-church. Composed of those whose names are in the book of like, right?


No. One Church. Revival means we are away from God. Individuals and specific churches might need revival, but the Church as a whole doesn't require it because we are forever in Christ and can't be separated from him.

In your post, you made it sound as if the Church had to undergo some further sanctification to be right with God again, and I was trying to argue that once we are in Christ we are covered in his righteousness and need nothing further. Am I making sense? Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying.

So can the sheep in the pen and
the other sheep both be Israel?
The sheep in the pen were
Israel. The other sheep are the
Gentiles. Believing Jews can be
part of the other flock, but the Church is never in the Jewish
pen.

Christ clearly said 'i must bring them also'. They all have to be in one pen, under one sheperd.


As I said, we will ALL be reconciled to Christ one day, but the Church is specific and special. Israel was the first flock who rejected Jesus. We (the Church) are the other sheep.

The bible clearly explains the two witness are two olive trees and two lampstand. So how can you say its Moses and Elijah?


The olive tree is a symbol of Israel (the two witnesses are from Israel, and sent to Israel), and the lamp stand is a symbol of witnessing for God (the two witnesses are witnesses for God).

I say the two witnesses are Moses and Elijah because God referenced them both in Malachi when he said he would send Elijah before the day of the Lord. Because the miracles the two witnesses perform are the same that Moses (plagues and blood) and Elijah (fire and drought) were given to perform. Because they were both at Christ's transfiguration, which was a picture of his second advent. Because both stood before God. And because, for what it's worth, Jewish tradition has always held that both Moses and Elijah would return to Israel one day.

Even though they were with Christ at the transfiguration (pre-figuring the saints who will be resurrected and the living saints who will be translated), they finished their life's work and aren't going to descend from heaven to take on another work.


Says who?

Do you believe we can lose our
salvation?

I will use an illustration. If you bought your son an icecream cone and placed it on the table, he will choose to either take it up and eat it or just walk by and ignore it. That is what Christ did. He did His part and bought us redemption. It is up to us to reach out and take it by faith ofcourse. Its already there for the taking. Losing salvation isn't like losing car keys. It is a perpetual act to remain stunted and not grow in Christ. Heb 5:11-6:1-8. Especially vs 8. So it amounts to rejection, right?


The illustration when right over my head. Can you give me a yes or no answer?

Why do you get to infer things
from scripture, and I have to use
verses and stuff? I still haven't
seen you quote a single verse
that says the Church has become
spiritual Israel.

Please read this
https://jaysanalysis.com/2016/10/09/the ... t-zionism/


I read it. He characterizes my beliefs as "moronic gobbledygook", bashes John Hagee for quite awhile, misinterprets a couple parables and some scripture, and then fleshes out his "argument" with quotes from things like St. Athanasius' First Festal Letter and the 8th Canon of the Seventh Ecumenical Council. What, didn't the Sixth Ecumenical Council cover it adequately? Are you kidding me, Jay Dyer, whoever you are? I want to cuss right now, but I won't.

I don't follow John Hagee. I think he's a wolf, cashing in on ignorant American evangelicals. I don't know anyone who listens to him. He's obviously the reason why people like you think that people like me are mindless idiots, drooling all over Israel.

If the Church has replaced Israel, why does Paul say, Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.? Replace the word Israel with the word Church and tell me that verse makes sense.

If the Church has replaced Israel, how is it that Jews are fulfilling God's prophecies for them, right now? Without Israel, those prophecies don't make sense anymore. So what, do we just throw them out?

And if the Church has replaced Israel, why does God say this in Jeremiah 31?:

36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.


Are the events of Revelation 12
something that has happened
already, or something that is
still to come?

Those events already happened.


I am pretty sure the Church would have remembered if they'd been carried into the desert on the wings of an eagle and nourished by God for three and a half years, but I guess it's possible we all forgot. :grin:

pardon the delay.


Don't apologize. I needed a bit of a break anyway.
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Re: Armageddon!

PostFri Mar 24, 2017 9:51 am

Maybe this timeline will help. It's a little rough, but gives the general idea of what happens around what point.

Rapture of the Church
Antichrist arrives on the scene
Antichrist brings about peace deal with Israel
144,000 are sealed and begin witnessing
Temple rebuilding starts

144,000 are translated
Abomination of Desolation
Jews flee Jerusalem to the desert, where they are protected by God
Two witnesses show up, start witnessing
Bad stuff happens

Armies are at Armageddon to make war with God
Jesus Christ rides from Heaven with the saints
All unbelievers are killed
Satan is bound and and thrown in the bottomless pit
Redeemed Israel finally takes possession of the land they were promised by God

A thousand years of peace begins with Jesus Christ on the throne
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Re: Armageddon!

PostFri Mar 24, 2017 1:45 pm

Thunderian wrote:
Armageddon, however, is never presented anywhere as a spiritual conflict, but as a physical one. Revelation tells us that there will be so many dead after the battle that the birds of the earth will gather for a great supper and will feast on the flesh of kings, captains and mighty men. If the battle is metaphorical, what is the meaning of that detail? What do the birds represent? What is the flesh meant to be, if not flesh? In the Bible, birds always mean birds, and flesh always means flesh, so unless there is some spiritual symbolism that is made clear elsewhere, I don't see how Armageddon could be anything other than a real event.


Peace to you bro Thunderian,

What you shared above is interesting because it correlates with the hadeeth of the end time regarding Jesus pbuh return and the final wave of Gog and Magog. Here check this out:

Al-Nawaas ibn Sam’aan (may Allah be pleased with him) reported that Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him), while describing the signs of the Day of judgement said: “… ...and The Prophet of Allah, Eesaa (Jesus), and his companions, will be besieged until a bull’s head will be more precious to one of them than a hundred dinars are to any of you today. Eesaa (Jesus) and his companions will climb At Tur (a mountain - maybe megiddo?) and pray to Allah, and Allah will send a kind of worm (virus?) on their (Ya’jooj and Ma’jooj [gog and magog]) necks, and they will fall down dead, all at once. Then Eesaa (Jesus) and his companions will come down out of the place where they were besieged, and they will find hardly a hand span of land that is not filled with the stench (of Ya’jooj and Ma’jooj), so Eesaa (Jesus) and his companions will pray to Allah, and Allah will send birds with necks like those of camels to carry them away and throw them wherever Allah wills.” (Reported by Muslim, 18/68).

It seems that both, your understanding of this event from Christianity and mine, from Islam - correlate perfectly.

God bless,

Scimi
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I have nothing to do with any recommendations to join any war on any person , race or community. I do not support ISIS nor any other movement, I seek opportunities to unite mankind, I seek to look at common ground and choose to ignore differences. I do not support violence, I condemn it. I have no affiliations with any promoting of violence be it political, racial or religious.
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Re: Armageddon!

PostFri Mar 24, 2017 6:05 pm

Peace to you as well, Scimitar, but I have to respectfully disagree with you. :grin:

The Bible doesn't say anywhere that Jesus will be besieged or that he has to call for help. It says that he is the one who slays the enemies of God when he comes out of Heaven leading an army -- not that he climbs down out of hiding and finds that God has sent a worm to kill the ones who were threatening him.

Revelation 19 says:

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


Is it possible that this hadeeth is confusing the besieged Jews that have gone into the desert and are being sustained by God with who it's referring to as Eesaa, and his companions? Jesus Christ redeems the besieged Jews at Petra when he comes from Heaven to slay the wicked. Remember Isaiah 63 as it describes the Lord Jesus Christ coming in majesty and glory from Petra (Edom, Seir or Bozrah), having slain those who threatened Israel?

1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.


That passage gives me shivers, I tell you, and there is no way to read that where Jesus is in any way threatened or hiding.

Jesus Christ is never under any kind of threat, and he doesn't call for help. He is the threat to evil, and he is the help to the besieged.
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Re: Armageddon!

PostFri Mar 24, 2017 6:45 pm

Thunderian wrote:Peace to you as well, Scimitar, but I have to respectfully disagree with you. :grin:

The Bible doesn't say anywhere that Jesus will be besieged or that he has to call for help. It says that he is the one who slays the enemies of God when he comes out of Heaven leading an army -- not that he climbs down out of hiding and finds that God has sent a worm to kill the ones who were threatening him.


Every action or miracle Jesus performed he did so in the name of who?

As you already know bro Thunderian, Jesus from your bible performed miracles by God's leave. When he prayed for the blind to be healed, who did he pray to? could't be himself right? When he cured the leper, again, by the will of God, when he cast out demons, he did so by the will of God. When he, insert miracle here - all by the will of God because he himself said in the NT "I can of my own will do nothing, but by the will of God" - so you do not have to disagree if you actually follow your holy book.

I know you deify Jesus pbuh and this is why ideas such as Jesus pbuh asking God for help seems offensive maybe? But I don't see how if he is in your theology, the begotten son of God - why would God not help his only begotten?

I find your theology here somewhat hard to follow in this sense, but I hope you will be able to correct me God willing.

Thunderian wrote:
Revelation 19 says:

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


Is it possible that this hadeeth is confusing the besieged Jews that have gone into the desert and are being sustained by God with who it's referring to as Eesaa, and his companions? Jesus Christ redeems the besieged Jews at Petra when he comes from Heaven to slay the wicked. Remember Isaiah 63 as it describes the Lord Jesus Christ coming in majesty and glory from Petra (Edom, Seir or Bozrah), having slain those who threatened Israel?


The hadeeth is referring to armageddon, the final battle after the wars are over - and this is the one against the final wave of Gog and Magog.

When we follow the ahadeeth literature and commentary from scholarship, we find that the actual companions of Jesus at this time will be very little - and scholars have said many martyrs would be made of the companions in the fight against evil in that time. According to some narrations, the number who will accompany Jesus pbuh on At-Tur, is 313. It is however, after this defeat of Gog and Magog's final wave that the period of peace which you mention as 1000 years and Muslim tradition mentions as 40 years, begins.

I also highlighted in red a part of verse 15, as this sword from the mouth, can mean prayer - and the prayer of Jesus pbuh is most certainly heard by God. The verse continues with what I understand to be the coming of the Kingdom.

Thunderian wrote:1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.


That passage gives me shivers, I tell you, and there is no way to read that where Jesus is in any way threatened or hiding.

Jesus Christ is never under any kind of threat, and he doesn't call for help. He is the threat to evil, and he is the help to the besieged.


And who does he pray to for this? Himself? Or God? As per my understanding, he always prayed to God, Eli Eli Sabachthani was also a plea to God for the cup to pass. But this time, he will pray for the final wave of Gog and Magog to be destroyed, and they will all die - according to Muslim ahadeeth.

Jesus pbuh emerges triumphant and demonstrating that Faith in God is what will help you. As he, Jesus is the perfect example of what faith in God is, right?

The details are not theologically compromised, not to me anyway - the only differences I see are in the length of time the Kingdom of Heaven is on earth for - you say 1000 years, I say 40. Details. And that one isn't theological.

Scimi

EDIT: on a side note, one thing I did muse at is how in the hadeeth it mentions that birds with necks like those of camels will come to take away the bodies of Gog and Magog peoples - these birds sound to me like dragons, and revelations talks about dragons in some other ways.

God knows best what these birds are, but hey, it's in the hadeeth prophecy.

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I have nothing to do with any recommendations to join any war on any person , race or community. I do not support ISIS nor any other movement, I seek opportunities to unite mankind, I seek to look at common ground and choose to ignore differences. I do not support violence, I condemn it. I have no affiliations with any promoting of violence be it political, racial or religious.
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Re: Armageddon!

PostFri Mar 24, 2017 9:30 pm

Scimitar wrote:
Thunderian wrote:Peace to you as well, Scimitar, but I have to respectfully disagree with you. :grin:

The Bible doesn't say anywhere that Jesus will be besieged or that he has to call for help. It says that he is the one who slays the enemies of God when he comes out of Heaven leading an army -- not that he climbs down out of hiding and finds that God has sent a worm to kill the ones who were threatening him.


Every action or miracle Jesus performed he did so in the name of who?

As you already know bro Thunderian, Jesus from your bible performed miracles by God's leave. When he prayed for the blind to be healed, who did he pray to? could't be himself right? When he cured the leper, again, by the will of God, when he cast out demons, he did so by the will of God. When he, insert miracle here - all by the will of God because he himself said in the NT "I can of my own will do nothing, but by the will of God" - so you do not have to disagree if you actually follow your holy book.


Jesus asked of the Father because he put himself in perfect submission to the Father, but only while he was living on earth.

Paul understood it, and wrote in Philippians 2:

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


I know it's a lot to wrap your head around, but it's clear that Jesus now has all things under him and is in subjection to no one.

Revelation 5 says:

Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.


And Jesus Christ himself says, I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end.

I know you deify Jesus pbuh and this is why ideas such as Jesus pbuh asking God for help seems offensive maybe? But I don't see how if he is in your theology, the begotten son of God - why would God not help his only begotten?


It's not offensive and I'm sorry if it came across that way. It's just wrong. How do you feel when someone tries to tell you some aspect of Muhammad that you know from the Quran or hadeeth to be untrue? It's the same thing. How can Jesus, who is everything, and has everything in subjection to him, ever be in need of any help?

I find your theology here somewhat hard to follow in this sense, but I hope you will be able to correct me God willing.


I have to admit there are aspects to it that I find hard to put into words. :grin: Threads like these are very beneficial for me because I examine my own faith and study how it works. I always end up being stronger because of it.

The trinity is one aspect of my faith that I can't fully explain. God is one, but God is three. I know that it's a fact, because Jesus was both God and man, he spoke of his Father, who was also God, and he sent the Holy Spirit of God to us when he left earth. There is so much more to the doctrine of the Trinity than that one verse in John. Perhaps we could explore it in another thread?

Thunderian wrote:
Revelation 19 says:

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


Is it possible that this hadeeth is confusing the besieged Jews that have gone into the desert and are being sustained by God with who it's referring to as Eesaa, and his companions? Jesus Christ redeems the besieged Jews at Petra when he comes from Heaven to slay the wicked. Remember Isaiah 63 as it describes the Lord Jesus Christ coming in majesty and glory from Petra (Edom, Seir or Bozrah), having slain those who threatened Israel?


The hadeeth is referring to armageddon, the final battle after the wars are over - and this is the one against the final wave of Gog and Magog.


In the Bible, the battle of God and Magog takes place at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ. It's not the same as the battle of Armageddon.

When we follow the ahadeeth literature and commentary from scholarship, we find that the actual companions of Jesus at this time will be very little - and scholars have said many martyrs would be made of the companions in the fight against evil in that time. According to some narrations, the number who will accompany Jesus pbuh on At-Tur, is 313. It is however, after this defeat of Gog and Magog's final wave that the period of peace which you mention as 1000 years and Muslim tradition mentions as 40 years, begins.


I guess these are more places where our faiths don't line up. The Bible says nothing about any believers being martyred at Armageddon or afterward. The army that follows Christ will have glorified bodies and be unable to die, and the mortal believers on earth will be in no position to join in the battle.

I also highlighted in red a part of verse 15, as this sword from the mouth, can mean prayer - and the prayer of Jesus pbuh is most certainly heard by God. The verse continues with what I understand to be the coming of the Kingdom.


The sword in the Bible is always a symbol of the word of God. Paul writes in Ephesians, and [take] the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. A sword coming from Jesus' mouth in this case would be a killing word against the evil forces. As I said before, God could destroy the universe with a word if he wanted to -- he spoke it into existence and he can speak it out -- so this makes sense.

Thunderian wrote:1 Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.
2 Wherefore art thou red in thine apparel, and thy garments like him that treadeth in the winefat?
3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.


That passage gives me shivers, I tell you, and there is no way to read that where Jesus is in any way threatened or hiding.

Jesus Christ is never under any kind of threat, and he doesn't call for help. He is the threat to evil, and he is the help to the besieged.


And who does he pray to for this? Himself? Or God?


He is praying to no one that I can see, and he has no reason to. After his ascension to the Father, Jesus' mission on earth was finished, and he was no longer in a submitted role to the Father.

As per my understanding, he always prayed to God, Eli Eli Sabachthani was also a plea to God for the cup to pass. But this time, he will pray for the final wave of Gog and Magog to be destroyed, and they will all die - according to Muslim ahadeeth.


Again, Jesus did pray to the Father while he was on earth and submitted to his will, but no longer. The Bible doesn't depict him praying to anyone in Revelation.

Jesus pbuh emerges triumphant and demonstrating that Faith in God is what will help you. As he, Jesus is the perfect example of what faith in God is, right?


Yes. Submission to God is the key to spiritual victory. I think there might be something in your faith about that, too. :grin:

The details are not theologically compromised, not to me anyway - the only differences I see are in the length of time the Kingdom of Heaven is on earth for - you say 1000 years, I say 40. Details. And that one isn't theological.


I believe the details are important, because every place, number, length of time and object in the Bible has symbolism. God is in these details.
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Re: Armageddon!

PostSat Mar 25, 2017 3:05 pm

Thank you for the explanation brother, though we disagree, we do so amicably.

I would like to respond to you in more detail when time permits God willing, but I didn't want to just leave it like this because you took the time to respond and put your thoughts into this.

Thank you bro !

Scimi
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I have nothing to do with any recommendations to join any war on any person , race or community. I do not support ISIS nor any other movement, I seek opportunities to unite mankind, I seek to look at common ground and choose to ignore differences. I do not support violence, I condemn it. I have no affiliations with any promoting of violence be it political, racial or religious.
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