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Zoroaster, Monotheism & Christianity

Theological and spiritual discussions within the context of a religious framework.
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Artful Revealer

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Zoroaster, Monotheism & Christianity

PostMon Mar 04, 2013 9:49 pm

I will provide the link to the source website, because the article is rather long (not as long as my previous one, to not scare off those who have read it) and alot easier on the eyes:

Zoroaster, Monotheism & Christianity

In this article we theorize about the birth of monotheism, the roots of Christianity and whether or not Gnostic Christianity being called a heresy is justified, centered around the examination of one prophet: Zoroaster.

The article is mine, so any potential questions can and will be answered here to the best of my abilities. Criticism is of course encouraged.

Happy readings.
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CrippledKnight

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Re: Zoroaster, Monotheism & Christianity

PostMon Mar 04, 2013 10:05 pm

Interesting. Before continuing "which I pretty much look forward to asking more profound questions."
Taking away the notion of the mentioned "church fathers". Which I; like you, understand certain of them may hold bias towards certain creeds "as obviously shown if we investigate what happenned to the Anabaptists"

What's your take on Paul & his teachings? & how are gnostic books "some of them more credible than others" more accurate to true Christian teachings than later century writings?

Regards,
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Re: Zoroaster, Monotheism & Christianity

PostTue Mar 05, 2013 11:01 am

CrippledKnight wrote:What's your take on Paul & his teachings?


Not a question with a short answer and not exactly relevant to the article either, so if you don't mind, there's an article I can link to which reflects some of my thoughts about Paul and God and is directly related to your question. Here it is: St. Paul & the God of this World. Let me know if you found that article satisfactory.


CrippledKnight wrote:& how are gnostic books "some of them more credible than others" more accurate to true Christian teachings than later century writings?


Depends on what you mean with the word "true". Let's assume you use it objectively, in the sense of "original", as in "of Christ". If so, then no one can truly know for certain due to lack of historical evidence of course. That's why the article I presented is a theory, which is subject to potential refutations, just like any other. But it doesn't pay any attention to Gnostic texts, even though we make use of the Gnostic theological frame as a tool to analyze ancient Hinduism.
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Re: Zoroaster, Monotheism & Christianity

PostTue Mar 05, 2013 4:59 pm

Bookmarked. :thumbup:
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Re: Zoroaster, Monotheism & Christianity

PostFri Mar 15, 2013 10:52 pm

I have been meaning to read this post AR, as i have just started i have 2 observations (to aid discussion)

1: Could the apostle St Thomas be classified as a gnostic (doubted the Resurrection, later was said to have travelled to India)

2: Regarding the suppression of the Cathars, it is my understanding that like the crusades, the suppression of the Cathars had other social influences, namely:

This war pitted the nobles of the north of France against those of the south. The widespread northern enthusiasm for the Crusade was partially inspired by a papal decree permitting the confiscation of lands owned by Cathars and their supporters. This not only angered the lords of the south but also the French King, who was at least nominally the suzerain of the lords whose lands were now open to despoliation and seizure. Phillip Augustus wrote to Pope Innocent in strong terms to point this out—but the Pope did not change his policy—and many of those who went to the Midi were aware that the Pope had been equivocal over the siege of Zara and the seizure and looting of Constantinople. As the Languedoc was supposedly teeming with Cathars and Cathar sympathisers, this made the region a target for northern French noblemen looking to acquire new fiefs. The barons of the north headed south to do battle
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism# ... an_Crusade

Massacre
The crusader army came under the command, both spiritually and militarily, of the papal legate Arnaud-Amaury, Abbot of Cîteaux. In the first significant engagement of the war, the town of Béziers was besieged on 22 July 1209. The Catholic inhabitants of the city were granted the freedom to leave unharmed, but many refused and opted to stay and fight alongside the Cathars.

(this is from wiki, so haven't double-checked source!!!)

In so much that as the Southern Nobels who supported the cathars lost, If they had of won this battle, their sponsorship of the cathar belief would of continued?
Last edited by captain cee bee on Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Zoroaster, Monotheism & Christianity

PostSat Mar 16, 2013 1:53 am

Art what are your views of Mazdakism? And if you're aware it's influence on the almost socialist like character of resistance to the Muslim invasions (the veiled prophet, khurramite revolution and many more...).

I'm just asking because of general interest in the second part of the question, but i'm sure you're aware of mazdak.
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Re: Zoroaster, Monotheism & Christianity

PostThu Mar 21, 2013 12:22 pm

Questions!

Awesome.

captain cee bee wrote:1: Could the apostle St Thomas be classified as a gnostic (doubted the Resurrection, later was said to have travelled to India)
Hey, CB.

Thomas could have been a Gnostic, but that claim only has one real basis, the fact that the Gospel of Thomas was found at Nag Hammadi among the other Gnostic apocrypha. It can't be argued based on the content of the Gospel itself either, because it's not particularly Gnostic, nor does it exclude the possibility of being Gnostic. But this debate is irrelevant in my personal opinion because Gnosis was an inherent aspect of early Christianity, which the proto-Orthodox theologians have detracted since the 2nd century and eventually cut out completely from standardized Christianity. Thomas was a Christian, which at the time meant he was, in my opinion, Gnostic as well, since no official distinction was made between them until much later.

captain cee bee wrote:In so much that as the Southern Nobels who supported the cathars lost, If they had of won this battle, their sponsorship of the cathar belief would of continued?

Gnostic teachings have always spread like wildfire. A good example of that is Manichaeism, which spread from China to Britain in the span of but two centuries, without conquest, and despite persecutions by practically all established religions. If the Albigensian beliefs wouldn't have been crushed, chances are they would have grown into a widespread belief accross all of Europe and beyond, like Manichaeism before it. Sponsorship by the nobility would've had little influence on the diffusion of Albigensian beliefs, I think. However, the southern nobles did have interest in remaining independant from the French king, making their support for Catharism primarily one of practical self-interest.

enkidu2368 wrote:Art what are your views of Mazdakism? And if you're aware it's influence on the almost socialist like character of resistance to the Muslim invasions (the veiled prophet, khurramite revolution and many more...).

I'm just asking because of general interest in the second part of the question, but i'm sure you're aware of mazdak.

I'm aware of Mazdak, but I have very little to offer in this field, I'm afraid. It appears Mazdakism is in the line of Zoroastrianism and Manichaeism, but I haven't researched its theology in depth to confirm that. My apologies.
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Re: Zoroaster, Monotheism & Christianity

PostFri Mar 22, 2013 5:13 am

Another excellently written and highly interesting article, Mr. Revealer. :)


Firstly - I liked your use of the Balrog pic, lol. Controversial, but fitting imo.


So, these are just some of my thoughts and questions as they occurred to me as I read through ~


I've been thinking about what you said here for some time:

Church Fathers went through a lot of trouble to try and eradicate and obscure a significant aspect of Christian teachings; teachings inextricably linked to, constituting even, the origins of Christianity.

That they went to so much trouble to rid the world of Gnostic Christians and their teachings should be enough to raise suspicions in anyone's mind. Why were they so threatened if what they were trying to lead people towards was the truth?? They wouldn't need to control the message to the extent of slaughtering an entire group of people, if they weren't trying to hide something. Gnosis, being about finding and strengthening one's own connection to God, doesn't leave room for manipulators to worm their way in I guess. Highjacking the path to God has turned out to be a great way of controlling the masses.

You mentioned the "Covenant" that certain clergy made with Yahweh - what pact are you referring to? Are we meant to view this sort of pact or covenant literally? I mean, how would one go about signing a pact with an Archdemon anyway lol?

I've seen you mention a couple of times now that the Catholic or Orthodox church is "the body of Christ". How do you mean?

This ~
Reducing Christian Gnosis to a primary dualistic belief system is one of those peculiarly dominant untruths. Because after verification, Christian Gnosis is exactly a denunciation of dualism which is regarded as a prison, a mechanism enclosing the soul between the Just and the Unjust; a prison we have to escape by participating in Good, the Father who forgives, who is above the Just and the Unjust; in a complex dialectic built on the purest monotheism the mind can imagine.

~ was beautiful!

In Pathways to Bliss, Joseph Campbell says: "According to Zarathustra (or Zoroaster), a restoration of the perfect world is under way, and we can participate in that restoration. By favoring the good against the evil in our lives and deeds, we will gradually help restore the lost good world." :thumbup:

What do 'they' have to gain by replacing the idea of the "Primordial Order or Fullness" with "Primordial Chaos"? Why is it better for them if we think life originated in chaos?

It's interesting that the same basic story has been told for 1000's of years: The Mother & The Father; An & Ki; Pitar & Matar. This ancient mythological tradition of representing the duality (male/female) seems not to have carried through to mainstream Christianity, correct? At least, I can't think of any 'Mother' equivalent. I wonder why this would be, what would there be to gain by cutting The Mother out of the equation?

It is by abolishing the reign of the Devil turned God that Isu Chrestos (the Good Savior) reversed the mythological framework imposed by the priests of Solomon’s Temple (see: Solomon = Shulman; a name of the Devil). So it is really the entire Judaic belief system which is completely upside down, contrary to Christian Gnosis.

And if Christian Gnosis is correct about this, then imagine how frustrating it would be for Isu Chrestos to see how his work was all undone, little by little, shift by shift, and the flock turned right back around to what He had been trying to lead it away from!

So, "Indra" is "Yahweh" too?? That's almost as mind-blowing to me as your revelation that Yahweh was the Archdemon! So Hindus have unknowingly been worshipping this being too? :eh:

The efficacy of bloody sacrificial worship to Devas is measured by the abundance of achieved favours, riches and triumphs. Vedism has 33 Devas whose power is fed by the sacrificial rite of the soma. The leader of the Devas, Indra, rules the lower world with aforementioned 33 demons...

Yeah, definitely sounds demonic. And 33 Devas - interesting number. That most certainly isn't coincidence.


That's all the time I have now. I'll get to the rest later. ;)
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Re: Zoroaster, Monotheism & Christianity

PostThu Jun 13, 2013 1:06 am

BUMP.

(I hope Artful doesn't mind - but me do likes this thread)

(so can someone contribute more than my useless ramblings please) :)

Scimi
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I have nothing to do with any recommendations to join any war on any person , race or community. I do not support ISIS nor any other movement, I seek opportunities to unite mankind, I seek to look at common ground and choose to ignore differences. I do not support violence, I condemn it. I have no affiliations with any promoting of violence be it political, racial or religious.
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Re: Zoroaster, Monotheism & Christianity

PostThu Jun 13, 2013 1:36 am

Scimitar wrote:BUMP.

(I hope Artful doesn't mind - but me do likes this thread)

(so can someone contribute more than my useless ramblings please) :)

Scimi


This is a great thread, i meant to finish off reading Artful's blog but forgot (will do so now that you reminded me). Anecdotally i asked my previous parish priest about the Nag Hammadi library a few years ago, he changed the subject quick and offered no insight. I believe my current priest would have more to say, i'll tap him up if the situation is right.
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