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Zoroaster, Monotheism & Christianity

Theological and spiritual discussions within the context of a religious framework.
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Artful Revealer

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Re: Zoroaster, Monotheism & Christianity

PostTue Jan 28, 2014 11:56 am

Did you have anything specific you wanted to discuss? Cause I know nothing about Gore Vidal or his work.

Thx for the bump though. :Wink:
The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled is convincing the world he is God.
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Re: Zoroaster, Monotheism & Christianity

PostMon Jun 26, 2017 8:39 am

An article I wrote some years ago seems useful here.

Simply put, Zoroastrianism is the name given to the religion and beliefs based on the teachings which are attributed to the Persian religious leader Zarathushtra ( in Greek Zoroaster, in later Persian Zartosht). Mazdayasna (worship of Ahura Mazda) is the name of the religion that recognizes the divine authority of Ahura Mazda, the creator who Zarathushtra discovered by studying nature and who was proclaimed by Zoroaster to be the one uncreated Creator of all (God). "Mazdaism" is a transliteration of Mazdayasna, which means " Worshipper of Mazda."

Most followers of Ahura Mazda call themselves Zoroastrians or Behdini (followers of the Good Religion.)

Who was Zoroaster?

Zoroaster is generally accepted as an historical figure, but dating just when Zoroaster lived is fraught with difficulty. The most widely accepted calculations place him near to 1200 BCE thus making him a candidate for the 'founder of the earliest religion based on revealed scripture' while there are other estimates that date his life anywhere between the 18th and the 6th centuries BCE. The Gathas and the chapter known as Yasna Haptanghaiti are all written in Old Avestan and the language used in these passages is much older than the language used in other parts of the Zoroastrian writings which are called the Avesta and which are written in what is called Young Avestan.

Old Avestan and Vedic Sanskrit are both descendants of the Proto-Indo-Iranian language and the Gathic Old Avestan is still quite close in structure to the Sanskrit of the Rig-Veda in language usage. However the Sanskrit of the Rig-Veda is somewhat more conservative in outlook and structure than the Avestan of the Gathas and so, based on the changes in the languages, scholars date the Gathas to around 1000 BCE, give or take a couple of centuries.

** But note also that the issue lies with how old is the Rig Veda, which no one seems to know with anything approximating certainty. There are also those who think the Gathas are older than the Rig Veda, Dastur Dhalla, and some other linguists see the Gathic language as more complex and archaic. Most of what we know about Zoroaster comes to us from a variety of sources, the Avesta, the Gathas, Greek historical works, archaeological evidence and oral history.

Zoroaster was born on the cusp of history, at a time when societies were shifting from being mainly nomadic to a more settled agrarian lifestyle. He lived in an area of the Middle East then known as Chorasmia ( An area roughly occupying present day Northern Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan) He was married, he had three daughters and three sons and it was at 30 that he received enlightenment. He preached for many years before his wife and children converted with the first convert being a cousin. These statements are all based on legends that have been woven in traditions.

They probably contain some truths and facts, but there is no way of ascertaining them and thus cannot be taken as historical. The later Avestan writings make Zoroaster a kind of 'superman', wrestling with demons and being tempted by Ahriman. The Gathas, however, show him an ordinary mortal, perplexed by his call, utterly certain of Ahura Mazda and bewildered by his lack of success. Eventually he converted King Vistaspa who reigned in eastern Iran and with the king's conversion, Zoroastrianism became a force in the region and there, as well in India among the Parsees, it still survives.

Who is Ahura Mazda?

For Zoroastrians, God (called Ahura Mazda) , is the beginning and the end,the creator of everything visible and invisible. Although it is recognized that the concept of "God", like many others, is slightly different in Zarathushtrian thought. Zarathushtra might best be considered, if we are to use modern terms to describe his doctrines, a Panentheist, that is he perceives a Supreme Being within creation but also transcending it. In fact as has been said one can see Mazda Ahura as containing creation in a way.

Moreover, the very concept of Lordship and Sovereignty are different, Ahura which is often translated as lord was the name of a set of old arya Gods which were totally abstract lacking any form, they can best considered as energy since they have no body, yet they are personal. In addition Mazda does not into impose Her/His will but rather teachs, persuades etc. (Thus Mazda's relationship with mortals is one of a partner, an ally, a friend and even a soul mate ) This being who is source of all that exists. The name Ahura Mazda contains both masculine and feminine elements. (Ahura, the Lord, is masculine while Mazda, Most or Super Wise or Knowledgeable, and Most or Super Giving or Generous One, is feminine.)

Ahura Mazda, according to Zoroastrian belief, is the Eternal, the Pure and the only Truth. In the Gathas, which are the oldest texts in Zoroastrianism and which are considered to have been written by Zoroaster himself, the teacher gives devotion to no other divinity besides Ahura Mazda.

What are the Gathas?

The Gathas are scripture written in an ancient Indo-Iranian verse form. Gatha means 'Song.' There are 17 Gathic hymns, they exist both on their own and as part of the much larger Avesta. They are the earliest of the Zoroastrian writings. What about Dualism? Perhaps the most well-known of later Zoroastrian doctrines is the doctrine of Dualism or Ditheism. This posits that Ahura Mazda has two 'emanations' called Spenta Mainyu (Good Mind) and Angra Mainyu (Bad or Evil Mind.) These became in later Zoroastrian belief Ormazd and Ahriman.

This doctrine, however, is purely a product of later thought. In Zoroaster's revelation, there is only Ahura Mazda who will ultimately triumph over the 'lie'(Yasna 48.1.) But not here and not now. For now human beings must choose which of the two 'forces' they will serve, Truth or the Lie, this choosing is a life-long affair but righteousness begins by making the first choice for Ahura Mazda and for the Truth.

Quote:"…Listen to the best things with your ears, reflect upon them with an unbiased mind. Then let each man and women for him or her self choose between the two ways of thinking. Awaken to my doctrine, before this great event of choice comes upon you…" [Avesta: The Gathas: Song 3:2 (FreeTranslation)]

What about Converts?

There are two main groups who can be considered 'cultural' Zoroastrians, they are the Zoroastrian community in Iran and the Parsee community in India. The Parsees (refugees in India from the invasion of Iran by the Muslims) do not allow conversion at all. The Iranian community does but quietly and carefully for conversion from Islam is considered a crime in Iran. But as well as these groups there are groups of 'Gathas-only' Zoroastrian converts by choice springing up throughout the world with the major centres for such groups being the US and South America. So it is indeed possible to convert to Zoroastrianism.

See also the article at: <url>http://tinyurl.com/svs5k </url>

What does Zoroastrianism teach?

This part of the article I have struggled with, the teachings of Zoroastrianism are deep and wide but I think the following quote is perhaps the best definition I have read.

Quote:"… Zarathushtra's is a message about a spirituality that progresses towards self-realization, fulfillment and completeness, as a good creation of a totally good God. It is a message of freedom - freedom to choose, freedom from fear, freedom from guilt, freedom from sin, freedom from stultifying rituals, superstitious practices, fake spirituality and ceremonials. The God of Zarathustra, is not a God of "Thou shalt" and "Thou shall not". God in Zoroastrianism does not care what you wear, what and when you eat or where and when you worship. God instead cares how righteous, progressive and good you are.

1. God is not about fear guilt and Condemnation.

2. God is Wisdom Love and Logic.

3. God does not have favorites and does not discriminate on the basis of nationality, sex, race or class.

4. God treats humans with dignity and respect.

5. God is not a slave master, or despot, among his serfs.

6. God is man's Soul Mate and Partner.

7. God is not Jealous, Wrathful or Vengeful.

8. Man is not sinful, fallen or depraved.

9. God has no opponent and heaven and hell are states of mind and being.

10. Man was created to progress to God-likeness and eliminate wrong from the Cosmos in partnership with God.

The Zoroastrian Religion pictures humanity as the growing and evolving creation of a God that respects it, and wants it to collaborate in the task of preserving, nourishing, fostering and refreshing this Living World and all it offers. A Zoroastrian is supposed to progress towards God (Ahura Mazda) by their own choices. Choosing to do good, and to avoid choosing to do wrong or evil. Zoroastrianism is thus the first truly ethical religion of human-kind and teaches that mortals achieve their goal of god-likeness and spiritual completeness by fighting evil through good thoughts, words and deeds. …"
The worst sinners, according to Jesus, are not the harlots and publicans, but the religious leaders with their insistence on proper dress and grooming, their careful observance of all the rules, their precious concern for status symbols, their strict legality, their pious patriotism. Longhairs, beards, necklaces, LSD and rock, Big Sur and Woodstock come and go, but Babylon is always there.

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Re: Zoroaster, Monotheism & Christianity

PostMon Jun 26, 2017 12:49 pm

Artful Revealer wrote:I will provide the link to the source website, because the article is rather long (not as long as my previous one, to not scare off those who have read it) and alot easier on the eyes:

Zoroaster, Monotheism & Christianity

In this article we theorize about the birth of monotheism, the roots of Christianity and whether or not Gnostic Christianity being called a heresy is justified, centered around the examination of one prophet: Zoroaster.

The article is mine, so any potential questions can and will be answered here to the best of my abilities. Criticism is of course encouraged.

Happy readings.


All religions begin as pagan, heresies or whatever one would name any new concept.

Religions, especially Christianity and Islam, have just forgotten their early history and roots and also ignore that all belief system are myth based with imaginary Gods and none should be taken literally.

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Re: Zoroaster, Monotheism & Christianity

PostMon Jun 26, 2017 1:24 pm

MistyMountain wrote:
It is by abolishing the reign of the Devil turned God that Isu Chrestos (the Good Savior) reversed the mythological framework imposed by the priests of Solomon’s Temple (see: Solomon = Shulman; a name of the Devil). So it is really the entire Judaic belief system which is completely upside down, contrary to Christian Gnosis.

And if Christian Gnosis is correct about this, then imagine how frustrating it would be for Isu Chrestos to see how his work was all undone, little by little, shift by shift, and the flock turned right back around to what He had been trying to lead it away from!


I agree that Christianity screwed things up from the moment Christians reversed much of the Jewish interpretation of their own myths.

It began in Eden where Christianity turned man's elevation to man's fall.

‘Instead of the Fall of man (in the sense of humanity as a whole), Judaism preaches the Rise of man: and instead of Original Sin, it stresses Original Virtue, the beneficent hereditary influence of righteous ancestors upon their descendants’.

http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2013/10/ ... -theodicy/

Christianity, I think, wanted to denigrate both women and Satan, as well as the many serpent cults that were all over the place in those days. Jews respected the serpent as demonstrated by Moses and his serpent headed staff.

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DL
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Re: Zoroaster, Monotheism & Christianity

PostMon Jun 26, 2017 1:30 pm

captain cee bee wrote:
Scimitar wrote:BUMP.

(I hope Artful doesn't mind - but me do likes this thread)

(so can someone contribute more than my useless ramblings please) :)

Scimi


This is a great thread, i meant to finish off reading Artful's blog but forgot (will do so now that you reminded me). Anecdotally i asked my previous parish priest about the Nag Hammadi library a few years ago, he changed the subject quick and offered no insight. I believe my current priest would have more to say, i'll tap him up if the situation is right.


Since Gnostic Christians are self-tasked with pointing out corruptions in both the religious and political arenas, it should not surprise any that Gnostic Christians are hated by all those who promote immoral ideologies.

The last think a religion or government wants or likes are free thinking and truthful Gnostics Christians.

Truth is and morality is not in them and they denounce it whenever they can.

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DL
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Re: Zoroaster, Monotheism & Christianity

PostMon Jun 26, 2017 1:36 pm

Tweeterfist wrote:Many sweet but ultimately empty words. The seducing logic of man, propelled by mere pride in the guise of spirituality.

The Lord's sheep will hear Him. His will will be done.


With sheeple, yes, but not with thinking individuals who look at the immorality of said shepherd.

People forget that sheep were fleeced and butchered by their shepherds.

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DL
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Re: Zoroaster, Monotheism & Christianity

PostMon Jun 26, 2017 1:38 pm

enkidu2368 wrote:
Tweeterfist wrote:Many sweet but ultimately empty words. The seducing logic of man, propelled by mere pride in the guise of spirituality.

The Lord's sheep will hear Him. His will will be done.



You Christians have the enormous pride that you know the will of god?

your's is the sin of lucifer himself...


I agree. Imagine the inflated egos of those who believe that a God would actually die for them.

Masters and slave owners do not die for their slaves.

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DL
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Re: Zoroaster, Monotheism & Christianity

PostMon Jun 26, 2017 1:42 pm

Tweeterfist wrote:
enkidu2368 wrote:
Tweeterfist wrote:Many sweet but ultimately empty words. The seducing logic of man, propelled by mere pride in the guise of spirituality.

The Lord's sheep will hear Him. His will will be done.



You Christians have the enormous pride that you know the will of god?

your's is the sin of lucifer himself...

I am prideful because I know the will of God is for His will to be done?


Yet he does nothing to have his will done except not show up to enlighten us as to what his will is.

Meanwhile his mainstream religions think God wants gays and women to be second class citizens and push homophobia and misogyny.

Is that the God you like?

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DL
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Re: Zoroaster, Monotheism & Christianity

PostMon Jun 26, 2017 1:44 pm

Rockstar wrote:
Tweeterfist wrote:
"When confronted with a problem involving the use of the reasoning faculties, individuals of strong intellect keep their poise, and seek to reach a solution by obtaining facts bearing upon the question. Those of immature mentality, on the other hand, when similarly confronted, are overwhelmed. While the former may be qualified to solve the riddle of their own destiny, the latter must be led like a flock of sheep and taught in simple language. They depend almost entirely upon the ministrations of the shepherd. The Apostle Paul said that these little ones must be fed with milk, but that meat is the food of strong men. Thoughtlessness is almost synonymous with childishness, while thoughtfulness is symbolic of maturity." -Manly P.Hall
Your pride is based on a series of text that was deemed "true enough" by a commission made from men of questionable motives. The seducing false-logic of the church, propelled by ignorance in the guise of religion.


My kingdom for such eloquence and thinking.

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DL
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