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Is it a sin to seek knowledge?

Theological and spiritual discussions within the context of a religious framework.
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Gnostic Bishop

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Re: Is it a sin to seek knowledge?

PostWed Dec 28, 2016 12:06 am

KoncreteMind wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:Gen 3;9 And the LORD God called unto the man, and said unto him: 'Where art thou?'

As you can see, God had to be absent as he lost track of Where A & E were.

This belies what you put.


No. This is like me and you being in a three story house and you yelling from the bottom floor: "KM where are you?". This doesnt make you absent. This doesnt mean that if I sought to ask you something, that I couldnt because you're "absent". Nothing in Genesis says He left or returned to the garden of Eden. Therefore, theres nothing in the story that suggests He was absent.

A & E could not desire anything without the knowledge of good and evil. They were blind and stupid before they ate and to not eat would have been the epitome of stupidity. And God asking them to stay mentally blind was quite wrong.

Do you agree?

Regards
DL


The problem we have here is that your opening post said that Adam and Eve were punished for seeking knowledge (of course by way of the tree). Yet when I ask you why they didnt go to the Creator of everything for they knowledge they sought and not the tree, you start changing things. So I ask again, why do you think it would be smarter for them to go to the ONE thing that were told not to for knowledge, when they could have easily went to the Creator who was amongst them for the knowledge?

I dont believe they were blind/stupid either. I just think they were supposed to grow into things and not simply have it all at once..


I guess that you do not recognize God to be Omni-present as scriptures say he is.

Let's go with your view of God being with A & E all the time.

Why would God let Satan or the talking serpent tempt Eve?

Why would he let Eve give of the tree to Adam?

If a good parent, God would have certainly intervened. Right?

Regards
DL
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Gnostic Bishop

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Re: Is it a sin to seek knowledge?

PostWed Dec 28, 2016 12:10 am

KoncreteMind wrote:[

I dont believe they were blind/stupid either. I just think they were supposed to grow into things and not simply have it all at once..


Again, you read into scriptures what is not there.

God did not seem to complain of their time line when saying that A & E had become as Gods in the knowing of good and evil.

Their mental eyes were opened on eating of the tree and they gained a moral sense to told them they were naked.

If they had not been blind and dumb, they would have reproduced way back in Gen 1 and would not have waited till Gen 3.

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DL
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KoncreteMind

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Re: Is it a sin to seek knowledge?

PostWed Dec 28, 2016 2:04 am

Gnostic Bishop wrote:
KoncreteMind wrote:[

I dont believe they were blind/stupid either. I just think they were supposed to grow into things and not simply have it all at once..


Again, you read into scriptures what is not there.

God did not seem to complain of their time line when saying that A & E had become as Gods in the knowing of good and evil.

Their mental eyes were opened on eating of the tree and they gained a moral sense to told them they were naked.

If they had not been blind and dumb, they would have reproduced way back in Gen 1 and would not have waited till Gen 3.

Regards
DL


I dont know whats left to say Bishop. I've asked you repeatedly, based off your opening post, why you feel it would be better for Adam and Eve to go to the tree for knowledge instead of the Creator, and you keep skating around it.

Im reading whats not there, but you can say that the Creator was absent because He asked "where are you" while you can turn around and hear your friend from one part of your house yell "GB, where are you?" and not conclude that the one asking that is absent from your domain. I guess in short, it seems like you didnt want a discussion about whether it was or was not a sin to seek knowledge. Which is fine I guess, I'll leave you to your pulpit.

Oh and just because they didnt have children when YOU think they should have had children, doesnt mean that they were "stupid" lol.
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KoncreteMind

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Re: Is it a sin to seek knowledge?

PostWed Dec 28, 2016 2:20 am

Gnostic Bishop wrote:I guess that you do not recognize God to be Omni-present as scriptures say he is.


Since nothing in Genesis says He didnt actually know where they were, then its safe to assume that the question could be asked while still keeping the Creator's omnipresence intact. In other words, I dont believe He was asking that question in a manner to which He was actually LOOKING for (as in He lost their whereabouts) Adam and Eve...

Let's go with your view of God being with A & E all the time.

Why would God let Satan or the talking serpent tempt Eve?


Free will

Why would he let Eve give of the tree to Adam?


Free will.

If a good parent, God would have certainly intervened. Right?

Regards
DL


Intervene for what? He gave them all that they ever needed with only ONE command which was to NOT eat from the tree.. Why would He need to step in as if He didnt make the directions, and implications of the wrong choice, clear? And if we read passed Genesis in the bible, we see that the same Being offered them what was originally taken by the end of the bible. Just have to earn it this time...
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Re: Is it a sin to seek knowledge?

PostWed Dec 28, 2016 5:29 pm

KoncreteMind wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:
KoncreteMind wrote:[

I dont believe they were blind/stupid either. I just think they were supposed to grow into things and not simply have it all at once..


Again, you read into scriptures what is not there.

God did not seem to complain of their time line when saying that A & E had become as Gods in the knowing of good and evil.

Their mental eyes were opened on eating of the tree and they gained a moral sense to told them they were naked.

If they had not been blind and dumb, they would have reproduced way back in Gen 1 and would not have waited till Gen 3.

Regards
DL


I dont know whats left to say Bishop. I've asked you repeatedly, based off your opening post, why you feel it would be better for Adam and Eve to go to the tree for knowledge instead of the Creator, and you keep skating around it.

Im reading whats not there, but you can say that the Creator was absent because He asked "where are you" while you can turn around and hear your friend from one part of your house yell "GB, where are you?" and not conclude that the one asking that is absent from your domain. I guess in short, it seems like you didnt want a discussion about whether it was or was not a sin to seek knowledge. Which is fine I guess, I'll leave you to your pulpit.

Oh and just because they didnt have children when YOU think they should have had children, doesnt mean that they were "stupid" lol.


Blind is blind and you complain of my saying God was not there to be asked while showing that he was not there by having to ask A & E were the were.

I also said nothing of having children but you ignore that choosing to have sex or not needs desire and without the tree of knowledge and choices, there can be no desire.

You are tied to the Christian interpretation and have ignored the original Jewish interpretation of our elevation and prefer to think that educating children is a sin, or to deny children that education is somehow good.

The Original Meaning Of Original Sin

In an overview of Judaism and Christianity, Kenan Malik contrasts their understandings of evil and sin:

The story of Adam and Eve, and of the serpent in the Garden of Eden, was, of course, originally a Jewish fable. But Jews read that story differently to Christians. In Judaism, Adam and Eve’s transgression creates a sin against their own souls, but it does not condemn humanity as a whole, and nor does it fundamentally transform either human nature or human beings’ relationship to God. In the Christian tradition, God created humanity to be immortal. In eating the apple, Adam and Eve brought mortality upon themselves. Jews have always seen humans as mortal beings.

In the Garden, Adam and Eve were as children. Having eaten of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, they had to take responsibility for themselves, their decisions and their behaviour. This is seen not as a ’fall’ but as a ‘gift’ – the gift of free will. As the Hertz Chumash, the classic Hebrew-English edition of the Pentateuch and Haftorahs, observes, ‘Instead of the Fall of man (in the sense of humanity as a whole), Judaism preaches the Rise of man: and instead of Original Sin, it stresses Original Virtue, the beneficent hereditary influence of righteous ancestors upon their descendants’.

The story of Adam and Eve was initially, then, a fable about the attainment of free will and the embrace of moral responsibility. It became a tale about the corruption of free will and the constraints on moral responsibility. It was in this transformation in the meaning of the Adam and Eve’s transgression that Christianity has perhaps secured its greatest influence. The true legacy of the doctrine of Original Sin is not as an explanation of evil, but rather as a description of human nature, a description that came to dominate Western ethical thinking as Christianity became the crucible in which that thinking took place.

Regards
DL




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DL
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Re: Is it a sin to seek knowledge?

PostWed Dec 28, 2016 5:32 pm

KoncreteMind wrote:
Gnostic Bishop wrote:I guess that you do not recognize God to be Omni-present as scriptures say he is.


Since nothing in Genesis says He didnt actually know where they were, then its safe to assume that the question could be asked while still keeping the Creator's omnipresence intact. In other words, I dont believe He was asking that question in a manner to which He was actually LOOKING for (as in He lost their whereabouts) Adam and Eve...

Let's go with your view of God being with A & E all the time.

Why would God let Satan or the talking serpent tempt Eve?


Free will

Why would he let Eve give of the tree to Adam?


Free will.

If a good parent, God would have certainly intervened. Right?

Regards
DL


Intervene for what? He gave them all that they ever needed with only ONE command which was to NOT eat from the tree.. Why would He need to step in as if He didnt make the directions, and implications of the wrong choice, clear? And if we read passed Genesis in the bible, we see that the same Being offered them what was originally taken by the end of the bible. Just have to earn it this time...


If, as a parent, you would let a supernatural entity temp your children into doing what you thought wrong, then I do not think you would make a decent parent, especially if like with A & E, you put the tempter right there so that the dirty deed could be done.

Regards
DL
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Re: Is it a sin to seek knowledge?

PostWed Dec 28, 2016 5:35 pm

KoncreteMind wrote:[

Why would God let Satan or the talking serpent tempt Eve?


Free will

Why would he let Eve give of the tree to Adam?


Free will.

[/quote]

God also had a free will to protect his children andf did not.

That aside, here is the so called free will you are talking about.


Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.

That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."

But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all sin by nature then, the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin. That being the case, for God to punish us for following the instincts and natures he put in us would be quite wrong.

Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."

Your free will gambit is thus refuted.

Regards
DL
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Re: Is it a sin to seek knowledge?

PostWed Dec 28, 2016 6:35 pm

I've been having this exact same debate for years.. it goes nowhere unfortunately. The mental gymnastics required to be okay with this are incredible. I agree with u completely gnostic.
Scratch most feminists and underneath there is a woman who longs to be a sex object. The difference is that is not all she wants to be. ~Betty Rollin

"I don't really aspire to being rational. I'm more attracted to the irrational," she says. "There's no such thing as total rationality. That's something I've realized lately." - Scarlet Johansson
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Re: Is it a sin to seek knowledge?

PostWed Dec 28, 2016 7:06 pm

justjess wrote:I've been having this exact same debate for years.. it goes nowhere unfortunately. The mental gymnastics required to be okay with this are incredible. I agree with u completely gnostic.


Thanks.

All we can do is give the facts as we understand them and not be upset when theists cannot understand what is written in their holy books.

We have to remember that the lying priests, preachers and imams got at them when young and have indoctrinated them into their lies.

Facts do not matter to those who have scrapped their logic and reason for the faith of fools.

Note how our friend above cannot follow a simple logic trail and can no longer use reason.

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DL
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Re: Is it a sin to seek knowledge?

PostThu Dec 29, 2016 4:45 am

Gnostic Bishop wrote:
Blind is blind and you complain of my saying God was not there to be asked while showing that he was not there by having to ask A & E were the were.


I guess this is where we end it unless you actually, you know, reply to what I said? You say He wasnt there, but when I give you the analogy of a person (you) on the first floor of a three story house calling out "where are you" to someone somewhere else in the house, you dont reply on how this means YOU are absent. Instead you skip right over it. Just like when I ask you, why would Adam and Eve go to the tree for knowledge, instead of the One who created them, the tree, and the serpent for knowledge, you again skip right over it. Then theres this falsehood:

I also said nothing of having children but you ignore that choosing to have sex or not needs desire and without the tree of knowledge and choices, there can be no desire.


You just said they didnt choose to reproduce till Genesis 3, where they then had children, because they were blind and dumb.The very next post and you're already changing your tune. So if you're here to simply state what you believe and ignore everything else, like I said, let me leave you to your pulpit. I thought you welcomed discussion, but silly me...

You are tied to the Christian interpretation and have ignored the original Jewish interpretation of our elevation and prefer to think that educating children is a sin, or to deny children that education is somehow good.


Christians are just like the Jewish folk. Foreigners of the Hebrews piggybacking off what wasnt originally theirs. I may take some things here and there from them, but I dont subscribe to either belief system as a whole. Sorry, you're not going to guess what I believe so might as well leave it at the discussion (or we can end it here since you seem to want to only tell your side of things which is fine).
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