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Armageddon!

Theological and spiritual discussions within the context of a religious framework.
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Karlysymon

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Re: Armageddon!

PostWed Mar 15, 2017 3:57 pm

Hey Thunderian, pardon my delayed response.

The problem I am having specifically with the idea that
Armageddon is a metaphorical conflict where Christians are battling spiritually against
unbelievers is that there is zero evidence for that point of view in the Bible. Ephesians says we
battle spiritually against
principalities, against powers,against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, be we are only told to stand against these things, not attack them, and it's clear that these are not flesh and blood forces that are coming against us. Armageddon, however, is never presented anywhere as a spiritual conflict, but as a
physical one.

First off, in the OP i stated that the examination or POV isn't mine (but that doesn't mean i can't subscribe to it) but that iam putting it up for us to discuss.
In your quote, you just sort of answered yourself. The real war we are engaged in is spiritual. A physical war wouldn't make any sense simply because we can't fight God. He is a consuming fire (Heb 12:29). The wicked are going to be destroyed by the 'brightness of his coming' (2 Thess 1:7-10, Isaiah 66:15-16), which accounts for the 'feast of the birds' you mentioned. And even if the physical war was between believers and unbelievers, iam pretty sure the former would be stripped of armour because of 'you can't buy or sell' rule. Its not just that, those very powerful military rulers will be cowering when He appears in the skies (Rev 6:15-17), inotherwords, they will abandon their battle stations.
Revelation tells us
that there will be so many dead after the battle that the birds of the earth will gather for a great supper and will feast on the flesh of kings, captains and mighty men. If the battle is metaphorical, what is the meaning of that detail? What do the birds represent? What is the
flesh meant to be, if not flesh?
In the Bible, birds always mean birds, and flesh always means flesh, so unless there is some spiritual symbolism that is made clear elsewhere, I don't see how Armageddon could be anything other than a real event.

I've answered this. Jeremiah also talks about it in 25:33. Reading verses 30-33 gives more context.
Iam not well versed with the book so we are going to have learn from each other. The woman in rev 12 is the church under persecution. In verse 14, she flees to the desert for a certain period of time. Which same time period is mentioned in Daniel 7:25. But for more context, read the entire explanation of the dream 7:15-28. Also compare the little horn in Dan 7 with Rev 13:5-8
If the church is always a bride or a chaste virgin why the language to the church of Ephesus 'to remember her first love and the height from which she had fallen' Rev 2:4?
If the Church is a chaste bride, doesn't it make sense that a false church would be portrayed the same as an unbelieving Israel is? As a whore and a fallen
woman.?

That is correct. Therefore, the harlot riding the beast is a false church. "nations have drunk the maddening wine of her adulteries" Rev 18:3
As for the mark of the beast, if its a chip or a tattoo, what if i get one just for the food and remain loyal to Christ (in my heart and mind ofcourse). Won't that be possible?
But the Jewish spiritual leaders
were completely blind. That's
why Jesus railed against them.
If they had been right with God
and still completely missed the
mark on prophecy concerning Jesus then your point might be valid, but these leaders were corrupt to the core in every way. They rejected Christ completely. Caiaphas didn't believe Jesus was the Messiah.

There evidence for my point. Nicodemus (whom Jesus asked "you are Israel's teacher yet you do not understand these things?" John 3:10) and Joseph of Arimathea were both members of the Jewish ruling Council, inotherwords Pharisees. Others also believed Christ but couldn't confess publically (John 12:42-43). Although i don't understand how Caiaphas couldn't have known because his very office of high priest and its duties had always been a foreshadowing of Christ's mission.
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Thunderian

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Re: Armageddon!

PostWed Mar 15, 2017 8:32 pm

Karlysymon wrote:Hey Thunderian, pardon my delayed response.



No problem. Don't feel like you need to respond right away. I'm not going to leave this board, so take your time.

Karlysymon wrote:
Thunderian wrote:The problem I am having specifically with the idea that
Armageddon is a metaphorical conflict where Christians are battling spiritually against
unbelievers is that there is zero evidence for that point of view in the Bible. Ephesians says we
battle spiritually against
principalities, against powers,against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, be we are only told to stand against these things, not attack them, and it's clear that these are not flesh and blood forces that are coming against us. Armageddon, however, is never presented anywhere as a spiritual conflict, but as a
physical one.

First off, in the OP i stated that the examination or POV isn't mine (but that doesn't mean i can't subscribe to it) but that iam putting it up for us to discuss.
In your quote, you just sort of answered yourself. The real war we are engaged in is spiritual. A physical war wouldn't make any sense simply because we can't fight God. He is a consuming fire (Heb 12:29). The wicked are going to be destroyed by the 'brightness of his coming' (2 Thess 1:7-10, Isaiah 66:15-16), which accounts for the 'feast of the birds' you mentioned. And even if the physical war was between believers and unbelievers, iam pretty sure the former would be stripped of armour because of 'you can't buy or sell' rule. Its not just that, those very powerful military rulers will be cowering when He appears in the skies (Rev 6:15-17), inotherwords, they will abandon their battle stations.


I don't know how I can put my point of view any differently. As I said, I don't believe it will be a fight at all. What will take place is this:

The armies of the world (which will be completely evil and ruled by evil men) will be gathered to make war against God. You know and I know that they don't stand a chance, but they will be fooled by Satan into thinking that they will be able to defeat the Lord.

Jesus Christ will come down from Heaven, leading us (you and me, praise God) Christians. When the armies and their rulers realize they don't have any hope against the wrath of the Jesus Christ, they will then scatter and hide themselves as is portrayed in Revelation 6.

Jesus Christ has command over all things, spiritual and temporal. I didn't ever mean to imply that guns, planes or tanks will have any effect on him, or that the Lord can't destroy these things with his power. He could destroy the universe with a word, if he wanted. This doesn't change the belief by the rulers of the world that all their weaponry will somehow have an effect on God.

Like I said, I don''t know any other way to express what I believe. Our war right now is spiritual, and Jesus Christ will destroy physical armies with his spiritual power, but that doesn't mean that Paul's writings about spiritual warfare can be applied to Armageddon.

Karlysymon wrote:
Thunderian wrote:Revelation tells us
that there will be so many dead after the battle that the birds of the earth will gather for a great supper and will feast on the flesh of kings, captains and mighty men. If the battle is metaphorical, what is the meaning of that detail? What do the birds represent? What is the
flesh meant to be, if not flesh?
In the Bible, birds always mean birds, and flesh always means flesh, so unless there is some spiritual symbolism that is made clear elsewhere, I don't see how Armageddon could be anything other than a real event.

I've answered this. Jeremiah also talks about it in 25:33. Reading verses 30-33 gives more context.


Jeremiah 25:15-38 are also about Armageddon and the destruction of God's enemies. The clue there is in verse 30:

Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.

Isaiah 63:

3 I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the people there was none with me: for I will tread them in mine anger, and trample them in my fury; and their blood shall be sprinkled upon my garments, and I will stain all my raiment.
4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.

Revelation 14:

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.


Armageddon can be used as a kind of catch-all for the wrath of God finally poured out on an evil and unrepentant world. The image of a winepress is consistent through the passages and books that speak of the day of his wrath.

Just as a side note, this is one of the things that I love about the Bible. How it is clearly one book, with one author and one message. You have Jeremiah, Isaiah and John, all speaking of the same event, in the same way, all using the same language, but separated by hundreds of years.

Karlysymon wrote:Iam not well versed with the book so we are going to have learn from each other. The woman in rev 12 is the church under persecution. In verse 14, she flees to the desert for a certain period of time. Which same time period is mentioned in Daniel 7:25. But for more context, read the entire explanation of the dream 7:15-28. Also compare the little horn in Dan 7 with Rev 13:5-8


The difference between our interpretations here is that in my view, the Church has been removed from the earth. Saints spoken of during the Tribulation are not part of the Church.

I would like to explore this further, but I think I will start a separate thread on it.

I would like to ask, if the woman is the Church, who is her child in Revelation 12?

Karlysymon wrote:If the church is always a bride or a chaste virgin why the language to the church of Ephesus 'to remember her first love and the height from which she had fallen' Rev 2:4?


Because this is one specific church, and not THE Church. Jesus is obviously speaking to a church that was, at one point, true to him, but has drifted into heresy.

Karlysymon wrote:
Thunderian wrote: If the Church is a chaste bride, doesn't it make sense that a false church would be portrayed the same as an unbelieving Israel is? As a whore and a fallen
woman.?

That is correct. Therefore, the harlot riding the beast is a false church. "nations have drunk the maddening wine of her adulteries" Rev 18:3
As for the mark of the beast, if its a chip or a tattoo, what if i get one just for the food and remain loyal to Christ (in my heart and mind ofcourse). Won't that be possible?


No.

Revelation 14:

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


Receiving the mark means death and eternal damnation. And there's that wine symbolism again.

Karlysymon wrote:
Thunderian wrote:But the Jewish spiritual leaders
were completely blind. That's
why Jesus railed against them.
If they had been right with God
and still completely missed the
mark on prophecy concerning Jesus then your point might be valid, but these leaders were corrupt to the core in every way. They rejected Christ completely. Caiaphas didn't believe Jesus was the Messiah.

There evidence for my point. Nicodemus (whom Jesus asked "you are Israel's teacher yet you do not understand these things?" John 3:10) and Joseph of Arimathea were both members of the Jewish ruling Council, inotherwords Pharisees. Others also believed Christ but couldn't confess publically (John 12:42-43). Although i don't understand how Caiaphas couldn't have known because his very office of high priest and its duties had always been a foreshadowing of Christ's mission.


Jesus' own disciples didn't understand the manner of his coming and the prophecy concerning him. Even when he told them, they still didn't get it. So I guess we can't expect the masses or the religious leaders to get it, either.

As I said, Karly, I don't hold it against anyone who doesn't believe as I do. I do accept that i could be wrong. At the end of the day, we are in God's hands, and he will bring about his will in any way he sees fit. I do believe the Bible comes together in a certain way, but the only thing that affects you and I today is whether or not we have accepted Jesus Christ. Everything else is interesting to discuss and amazing to study, but in the end, it makes no difference to us whether our interpretation of it is right or wrong.
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Re: Armageddon!

PostWed Mar 15, 2017 10:00 pm

Thanx for your reply and i understand your POV
this is one of
the things that I love about the Bible. How it is clearly one book,with one author and one message. You have Jeremiah, Isaiah and John, all speaking of the same event, in the same way, all using the same language, but separated by hundreds of years.

That is why i said it is its own interpreter and its harmonious.
I would like to explore this
further, but I think I will start a separate thread on it.
I would like to ask, if the
woman is the Church, who is
her child in Revelation 12?

we can run with it here. There are only 3 Christian active posters and Rainerann seems to be busy a.t.m. But the choice is yours. Christ is her child. The male child that was snatched up to heaven, remember? She also has other offspring.
I will ask here, the 144000 that are sealed before the 4 winds are loosed. Is that event before or after the Rapture?
Jesus' own disciples didn't
understand the manner of his coming and the prophecy
concerning him. Even when he told them, they still didn't get it.
So I guess we can't expect the masses or the religious leaders to get it, either.
As I said, Karly, I don't hold it
against anyone who doesn't
believe as I do. I do accept that i could be wrong. At the end of the day, we are in God's hands, and he will bring about his will in any way he sees fit. I do believe the Bible comes together in a certain way, but the only thing that affects you and I today is whether or not
we have accepted Jesus Christ. Everything else is interesting to discuss and amazing to study,
but in the end, it makes no
difference to us whether our interpretation of it is right or
wrong.

I get that but it does matter. Christ said in Matt 24 "see i have told you before hand". The interpretation is important so we do not get decieved. If it wasn't such a biggie, why is it there in scripture? And a blessing in regard to it? If the Pharisees had gotten the interpretation correct, Annas and Caiaphas and their buddies probably wouldn't have done what they did. The things that happened to ancient Israel were written down for our warning (1 corinthians 10)
“It [Christ’s first coming] came, however, in a way that most of them didn’t expect, not because they hadn’t been told, but because they didn’t understand the meaning of the Scriptures (Luke 24:25-27) .” How might faithful people today have misconceptions about Christ’s second coming?

I thought this would interest you and iam desirous of your comment and the implications for the OP
They found that while more
than seven out of 10 Americans call themselves Christians, just ONE out of every 10 were able to answer basic questions about the Bible and the faith. The number is low among
young Americans as well. Only FOUR percent of millennials aged 18-29 scored 80 percent or higher on a survey asking questions about their faith.
www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2017/march/how-many-americans-have-a-biblical-worldview-nbsp
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Re: Armageddon!

PostThu Mar 16, 2017 6:14 am

Karlysymon wrote:Thanx for your reply and i understand your POV
this is one of
the things that I love about the Bible. How it is clearly one book,with one author and one message. You have Jeremiah, Isaiah and John, all speaking of the same event, in the same way, all using the same language, but separated by hundreds of years.

That is why i said it is its own interpreter and its harmonious.


Agreed, but I have to wonder how harmonious the interpretation of the woman in Revelation 12 being the Church is when the Church is always referred to elsewhere as a bride or an intended wife. What is the meaning of the sun, moon and stars in relation to the woman? If the interpretation will always be found somewhere in the Bible, where is the interpretation in the Bible for the sun, moon and stars in relation to the Church? There must be one somewhere, and it must be clearly tied to the Church. Don't you agree?

I would like to explore this
further, but I think I will start a separate thread on it.
I would like to ask, if the
woman is the Church, who is
her child in Revelation 12?

we can run with it here. There are only 3 Christian active posters and Rainerann seems to be busy a.t.m. But the choice is yours. Christ is her child. The male child that was snatched up to heaven, remember? She also has other offspring.
I will ask here, the 144000 that are sealed before the 4 winds are loosed. Is that event before or after the Rapture?


I just meant a further study of eschatological events in relation the Church, the Rapture, and the Tribulation, but I don't mind hashing it out here.

How can Christ be the Church's child? The Church is Christ's bride, and the Church was nowhere to be found when Christ was born. Is Jesus to marry his mother? I have to ask for scripture on this one, too, because I've never seen anything to support such a notion.

The 144,000 have nothing to do with the Church. They are from the twelve tribes of Israel.

Revelation 7:

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.


This sealing takes place after the Rapture, because the events preceding it clearly place it in the Tribulation.

Jesus' own disciples didn't
understand the manner of his coming and the prophecy
concerning him. Even when he told them, they still didn't get it.
So I guess we can't expect the masses or the religious leaders to get it, either.
As I said, Karly, I don't hold it
against anyone who doesn't
believe as I do. I do accept that i could be wrong. At the end of the day, we are in God's hands, and he will bring about his will in any way he sees fit. I do believe the Bible comes together in a certain way, but the only thing that affects you and I today is whether or not
we have accepted Jesus Christ. Everything else is interesting to discuss and amazing to study,
but in the end, it makes no
difference to us whether our interpretation of it is right or
wrong.

I get that but it does matter. Christ said in Matt 24 "see i have told you before hand". The interpretation is important so we do not get decieved. If it wasn't such a biggie, why is it there in scripture? And a blessing in regard to it? If the Pharisees had gotten the interpretation correct, Annas and Caiaphas and their buddies probably wouldn't have done what they did. The things that happened to ancient Israel were written down for our warning (1 corinthians 10)


Matthew 24 is prophetic when we read it, but is a message to the Jews during the Tribulation who might be deceived by the antichrist. To them, he will come with signs and wonders and it will be much easier for them to be fooled into thinking he is the Messiah. Many will accept him as such because of the things he can do.

Jesus says:

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.


He then goes on to tell the circumstances of his own coming (not the Rapture, but his coming in wrath and judgement at Armageddon. His second advent.)

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
(This is a reference to the birds eating the flesh of the dead at Armageddon. Jesus is saying that when we see the dead piled up and the birds eating them, in conjunction with the other signs, we know that this is the real Messiah, Jesus Christ, come unto the world to take his rightful place.)

Matthew 24 also speaks of the moment when the antichrist declares himself God, and the flight of the Jews (Israel, or the woman) from Jerusalem that is spoken of in Revelation 12.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

This is in Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.;

also in Daniel 11:31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

But notice the week he mentions. The week is seven years, the length of the Tribulation, and halfway through that would be three and half years, also known as time, times and half a time.

Back to Matthew 24:

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: (the flight of the woman, Israel)
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
(why should they worry about it being the Sabbath, if they are the Church?)
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The Great Tribulation is the last half of the Tribulation. Up until then, the Jews were not persecuted, but following the moment when the antichrist declares he is God, they will be hunted and killed at his orders. But God will preserve this remnant of believing, spiritual Israel, which brings us back to Revelation 12:

13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.


A time, and times, and half a time. Three and a half years, the last half of the seven-year Tribulation

“It [Christ’s first coming] came, however, in a way that most of them didn’t expect, not because they hadn’t been told, but because they didn’t understand the meaning of the Scriptures (Luke 24:25-27) .” How might faithful people today have misconceptions about Christ’s second coming?


They shouldn't, because Christ's return is pretty clearly defined as accompanied by specific signs and wonders. The problem is that the antichrist will be able to counterfeit some of these. However, look to the parallel passage in Luke 21 -

25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.


Jesus is saying that only when you see these signs, will you know that I am coming. The antichrist won't be able to counterfeit everything. Those who study the Bible will also be able to count the days from the abomination of desolation. The time of three and half years as the Great Tribulation is pretty well established in the Bible. Revelation 13:5 gives it as 42 months, which is the same thing as 1260 days, which is the time given in Revelation 11:3 for the commission of the two witnesses.

If you are asking how people today could have misconceptions about the manner of the second advent of Jesus Christ, I say it means they aren't reading their Bibles. The return of Jesus Christ is the major theme of scripture.

I thought this would interest you and iam desirous of your comment and the implications for the OP
They found that while more
than seven out of 10 Americans call themselves Christians, just ONE out of every 10 were able to answer basic questions about the Bible and the faith. The number is low among
young Americans as well. Only FOUR percent of millennials aged 18-29 scored 80 percent or higher on a survey asking questions about their faith.
www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2017/march/how-many-americans-have-a-biblical-worldview-nbsp


I don't know what implications it might have for the OP, except that it might be much easier to accept most of prophecy as a metaphor if you aren't familiar with the Bible.
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Re: Armageddon!

PostThu Mar 16, 2017 3:04 pm

Thunderian wrote:Agreed, but I have to wonder
how harmonious the
interpretation of the woman in Revelation 12 being the Church is when the Church is always referred to elsewhere as a bride or an intended wife. What is the meaning of the sun, moon and stars in relation to the woman?
If the interpretation will always be found somewhere in the Bible, where is the interpretation in the Bible for
the sun, moon and stars in
relation to the Church? There
must be one somewhere, and it must be clearly tied to the Church. Don't you agree?

Okay, so we will start with this:

Women often
represent religious systems in Revelation.
-Jezebel is associated with a
religious system of false
teaching (Revelation 2:20)
-The Great Harlot is
associated with false religion
(Rev 17:2)
-The Bride is associated with
the church (Rev19:7-8)
That woman then represents
the true church, the apostolic
church, with its pure doctrines (the sun).
The twelve stars on her head
are the twelve apostles.
The dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. And she brought
forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of
iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”
Revelation 12:25.

Now, who was this man-child? There has been only one man-child who was destined to rule all nations
and who was finally caught up to God’s throne. It is none other than Christ. But who tried to kill Jesus as soon as He was born? You answer, “Herod, the Roman king.”
But when Christ left, the dragon turned its attention to the woman's other offspring.

How can Christ be the Church's child? The Church is Christ's bride, and the Church was nowhere to be found when Christ was born. Is Jesus to marry his mother? I have to ask for scripture on this one, too, because I've never seen anything to support such a notion.

Then again, if the woman Is Israel, how can she be His bride and the mother at the same time?
We also have to consider this promise (of the cross) given after the Fall. God put enmity between the woman (and her offspring) and the Serpent (and its offspring).
He will strike your head and you will strike His heel~Gen 3:15

so from this, we see that there would always be two groups. Those on God's side and those on the devil's side because its very clear he has offspring just as real Christians are God's children.
The church consists of true followers of God, from after the Fall. Was faithful Israel a church? Yes. Just as we have a multitude of faiths / denomination. The true followers of Christ make up "the Church"
The 144,000 have nothing to do with the Church. They are from the twelve tribes of Israel.

They have everything to do with the church. They are the only group of people to be translated. They will enter heaven without tasting death just like Enoch and Elijah. The chapter clearly states that they had been redeemed from the earth and offered as first fruits. (1 Cor 15:23, 51. 1 Thess 4:15-17). In describing the condition of earth shortly before Christ returns, Isaiah (chap 24) speaks about a dwindled population...."very few are left" (vs 6). And that very few includes both righteous and wicked people. As i said, i don't believe in the rapture and tribulation the way its taught in mainstream christianity. The church will be on earth to endure the tribulation and the parable of the 10 virgins demonstrates that.
And again spiritual Israel consists of both jews and gentiles.
Surely God is good to Israel, to those who are pure in heart~ Psalm 73:1

As for matthew 24 it was a foreshadowing of the events circa 66-70 a.d and broadly, the end of the world. Please read this
https://jaysanalysis.com/2013/07/09/the ... struction/
I wouldn't be so sure about Christians not having misconceptions about the second advent. Christ says countless times to be ready and our guard. It is a fact that many christians do not read/study their bibles. Hollywood has stepped in to do the leg work.
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Re: Armageddon!

PostThu Mar 16, 2017 3:14 pm

"Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon" (verse 16).

What is Armageddon? I have come to the conclusion that the best way to understand the term, in the light of the biblical evidence, is as the Greek form of a couple Hebrew words that mean "mountain of Meggido." The problem is, however, that there is no mountain in all the world named Meggido. Meggido was a city on a small elevation at the edge of the plain of Jezreel. Looming over the place, however, is a range of mountains called Carmel. Carmel is the mountain of Megiddo in the same sense that Mount Rainier is the mountain of Seattle, or Table Mountain the mountain of Cape Town. Mount Carmel is the mountain you could see from all over town, even though Megiddo itself was not in the mountains. What counts in Revelation is that Mount Carmel was the place where the great Old Testament showdown between Elijah and the prophets of Baal took place (1 Kings 18:16-46). On that occasion God answered Elijah's prayer to bring fire down from heaven onto an altar to prove who was the true God. According to Revelation, the Mount Carmel experience will be repeated at the end. Once again there will be a showdown between the true God and a devious counterfeit. But it will be different this time. At the end the fire from heaven will fall on the wrong altar. And it will be the counterfeit Elijah and the counterfeit angels who bring it down (Rev. 13:13, 14). On that day all the evidence of the five senses will suggest that the coun- terfeit trinity is the true God. We are already living in such a time.
Secular people are set up for such a deception. Secular beliefs focus on what can be seen, heard, tasted, touched, or smelled. Reality is based on what the five senses are capable of perceiving. But Scripture says that in the final crisis of earth's history, those who trust in their five senses will be deceived. It will be a battle between two truth systems: one will be confirmed scientifically; the other will be confirmed only by Scripture. To quote the words of Jesus: "I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe" (John 14:29)
Things are not always what they seem. People need to know that those who trust primarily in their senses will be deceived. The Mount Carmel experience will be repeated at the end, in support of the counterfeit trinity. In that crisis all the evidence of our eyes and our ears will tell us that we've been wrong to follow the Bible. Scripture portrays the end- time as a time of great deception, a time when reason will lead us astray. Revelation portrays the end- time in terms of a battle between the Scriptures and perception, between reality as experienced by the five senses, and ultimate reality as revealed by God Himself.
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Thunderian

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Re: Armageddon!

PostFri Mar 17, 2017 3:02 am

Karlysymon wrote:
Thunderian wrote:Agreed, but I have to wonder
how harmonious the
interpretation of the woman in Revelation 12 being the Church is when the Church is always referred to elsewhere as a bride or an intended wife. What is the meaning of the sun, moon and stars in relation to the woman?
If the interpretation will always be found somewhere in the Bible, where is the interpretation in the Bible for
the sun, moon and stars in
relation to the Church? There
must be one somewhere, and it must be clearly tied to the Church. Don't you agree?

Okay, so we will start with this:

Women often
represent religious systems in Revelation.


Agree.

-Jezebel is associated with a
religious system of false
teaching (Revelation 2:20)
-The Great Harlot is
associated with false religion
(Rev 17:2)
-The Bride is associated with
the church (Rev19:7-8)


But are you saying that Jezebel and the Great Harlot are to be equated, symbolically, with the chaste, virgin Bride of Christ? Are you sure about this?

That woman then represents
the true church, the apostolic
church, with its pure doctrines (the sun).
The twelve stars on her head
are the twelve apostles.


Why would the Church suddenly be referred to as a woman, specifically, when everywhere else in the New Testament the Church is referred to, specifically, as a bride?

Where are the apostles referred to anywhere else, symbolically, as stars?

Just to remind you, Israel and his twelve sons are named in Genesis as the sun, the moon and twelve stars. The women in Revelation is literally wearing the sun, the moon and twelve stars. If there is a tie in to the Church in this passage, there has to be a reference elsewhere in scripture that has the same symbols attached to the Church.

The Bible says in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established, and I take this to mean that everything in scripture will be referenced in at least two places. Every wack theology and perversion of doctrine is based on the wrong interpretation of just one single verse. If scripture does not agree with scripture, then it's being read wrong. So there must be a reference somewhere to the apostles as stars, and there must be a reference somewhere to the Church being represented with the same symbology as is used in Revelation 12.

The dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. And she brought
forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of
iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.”
Revelation 12:25.

Now, who was this man-child? There has been only one man-child who was destined to rule all nations
and who was finally caught up to God’s throne. It is none other than Christ. But who tried to kill Jesus as soon as He was born? You answer, “Herod, the Roman king.”
But when Christ left, the dragon turned its attention to the woman's other offspring.


I agree that the child is Christ, but what makes you say that the dragon is Herod when that same passage names the dragon as Satan? And I have to ask, when did Herod draw a third of the stars from Heaven? We know that Satan does that, but did Herod as well? When did Herod battle Michael and the angels for control of Heaven? And how could Herod make war with the remnant of the woman's seed, and those who had the testimony of Jesus Christ, if he was long dead before the Church was established or Christ began his ministry?

I can accept that my interpretation may not be correct, but read Revelation 12 substituting the name Herod for dragon and and Church for woman and tell me it makes more sense than what I am saying.

How can Christ be the Church's child? The Church is Christ's bride, and the Church was nowhere to be found when Christ was born. Is Jesus to marry his mother? I have to ask for scripture on this one, too, because I've never seen anything to support such a notion.

Then again, if the woman Is Israel, how can she be His bride and the mother at the same time?
We also have to consider this promise (of the cross) given after the Fall. God put enmity between the woman (and her offspring) and the Serpent (and its offspring).


Israel is not the Bride of Christ. The Church is. Jesus is the offspring of Israel, not of the Church. Unless you have scripture that references Israel as the bride of Christ, and Jesus as the son of the Church, this doesn't add up.

He will strike your head and you will strike His heel~Gen 3:15

so from this, we see that there would always be two groups. Those on God's side and those on the devil's side because its very clear he has offspring just as real Christians are God's children.
The church consists of true followers of God, from after the Fall. Was faithful Israel a church? Yes. Just as we have a multitude of faiths / denomination. The true followers of Christ make up "the Church"


Faithful Israel was a Church? How can this be when the Church was not instituted until after the time of Christ?

When Jesus said, upon this rock I will build my church, are you saying that he was speaking of something had already been built? When do you say that the Church was established?

The 144,000 have nothing to do with the Church. They are from the twelve tribes of Israel.


They have everything to do with the church.


Then why do they come out of the twelve tribes of Israel? If Israel and the Church are the same thing, then what do the tribes listed represent? And where is this representation of the twelve tribes in the Church referenced in scripture?

They are the only group of people to be translated. They will enter heaven without tasting death just like Enoch and Elijah. The chapter clearly states that they had been redeemed from the earth and offered as first fruits. (1 Cor 15:23, 51. 1 Thess 4:15-17).


How are the scriptures you have listed referring to the 144,000?


1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Those that are Christ's at his coming, are those the 144,000? Do you think they will be the only ones saved through the Tribulation? Are you a Jehovah's Witness?

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


If that passage describes the end of the Tribulation, who are the saints who follow Christ down out of Heaven to the battle of Armageddon in Revelation 19?

In describing the condition of earth shortly before Christ returns, Isaiah (chap 24) speaks about a dwindled population...."very few are left" (vs 6). And that very few includes both righteous and wicked people. As i said, i don't believe in the rapture and tribulation the way its taught in mainstream christianity. The church will be on earth to endure the tribulation and the parable of the 10 virgins demonstrates that.
And again spiritual Israel consists of both jews and gentiles.


So you believe that Israel and the Church are one and the same then.

Can you quickly explain how the parable of the 10 virgins means that the Church goes through the Tribulation?

As for matthew 24 it was a foreshadowing of the events circa 66-70 a.d and broadly, the end of the world. Please read this
https://jaysanalysis.com/2013/07/09/the ... struction/
I wouldn't be so sure about Christians not having misconceptions about the second advent. Christ says countless times to be ready and our guard. It is a fact that many christians do not read/study their bibles. Hollywood has stepped in to do the leg work.


How can Matthew 24 be a prophecy of a literal event (the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD) but also about something you say is a spiritual event (Armageddon)? If prophecies are sometimes literally fulfilled and sometimes spiritually fulfilled, how do you know when which is which?

Matthew 24 says that following the abomination of desolation, then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Do you believe that time that followed the destruction of Jerusalem was the greatest time of tribulation for the Jews that the world has ever seen? Worse than the Holocaust?

Matthew 24 goes on to say that this tribulation will be so bad that, except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Is that supposed to have happened in 70AD as well? Mankind on the verge of extinction? It sounds more like what Isaiah was talking about in chapter 24.
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Karlysymon

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Re: Armageddon!

PostFri Mar 17, 2017 6:21 pm

Thunderian wrote:But are you saying that Jezebel and the Great Harlot are to be
equated, symbolically, with the
chaste, virgin Bride of Christ?
Are you sure about this?

Just like what was said above, in scripture women represent religious systems. So Jezebel and the great harlot are false systems/denominations do not hold and are opposed to the true doctrine of Christ held by the true followers of Christ: those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus (Rev 12:17)
Why would the Church suddenly
be referred to as a woman,
specifically, when everywhere
else in the New Testament the
Church is referred to,
specifically, as a bride?

Can you please give me 3 verses in the NT saying the church is a bride except Rev 19:7? You should know this better (iam unmarried), a bride becomes a bride shortly before saying "i do" and after the wedding. Other than that, she remains just another woman (chaste or tramp). The admonition to a married couple in Eph 5:22-33 says nothing about bride "just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her, to make her holy". So, did Christ die for His bride or an ordinary woman? We see the same thing when God talks about Israel (physical) in Ezekiel 16.
Where are the apostles referred
to anywhere else, symbolically,
as stars?
Just to remind you, Israel and
his twelve sons are named in
Genesis as the sun, the moon and twelve stars. The women in
Revelation is literally wearing
the sun, the moon and twelve
stars. If there is a tie in to the
Church in this passage, there has
to be a reference elsewhere in scripture that has the same
symbols attached to the Church.
The Bible says in the mouth of
two or three witnesses shall
every word be established, and I
take this to mean that everything in scripture will be
referenced in at least two
places. Every wack theology and
perversion of doctrine is based
on the wrong interpretation of
just one single verse. If scripture does not agree with scripture,
then it's being read wrong. So
there must be a reference
somewhere to the apostles as
stars, and there must be a
reference somewhere to the Church being represented with
the same symbology as is used
in Revelation 12.

Iam not not going to lie to you or strain up a verse to give you what you are asking. As far as i know, there is no other scripture that mentions a woman dressed as a sun and crowned with stars. Nor can i come up with another verse that says the stars are representative of the apostles. Your use of the interpretation of Joseph's dream doesn't help either. Jacob told Joseph the moon was representative of his mother. In reality, his real mother ,Rachel, wasn't even around at that time. She died while giving birth to his brother Benjamin (Gen 35:16-18). If Leah was to be the mother, even she didn't make it to Egypt with Jacob to 'bow down' to Joseph (Gen 49:29-33). Or maybe his other 2 step mothers(Chap 30):Bilhah and Zilpah but there is no evidence that they made it to Egypt either. So i would take it that God merely employed those symbols to foreshadow Joseph's glory and that his father and brothers would live to see it. Therefore, in regard to the woman clothed with the sun and crowned with stars, the other verse i can think of that might help us is Daniel 12:2-3: refering to the righteous: those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens and those who LEAD MANY TO RIGHTEOUSNESS, like the stars for ever and ever.

but what makes you say that
the dragon is Herod when that
same passage names the
dragon as Satan? And I have to
ask, when did Herod draw a third of the stars from Heaven?
We know that Satan does that,
but did Herod as well? When did
Herod battle Michael and the
angels for control of Heaven?
And how could Herod make war with the remnant of the
woman's seed, and those who
had the testimony of Jesus
Christ, if he was long dead
before the Church was
established or Christ began his ministry?
I can accept that my
interpretation may not be
correct, but read Revelation 12
substituting the name Herod for
dragon and and Church for woman and tell me it makes
more sense than what I am
saying.

There has
been only one man-child who was destined to rule all nations
and who was finally caught up
to God’s throne. It is none other
than Jesus Christ. But who tried
to kill Jesus as soon as He was
born? You answer, “Herod, the Roman king.”
Herod tried to put all the boy
babies to death in Judea in an
attempt to destroy Christ.
The Roman Empire, then, is
symbolized in Bible prophecy by the same red dragon as is the
devil himself. Because Satan
worked so closely through that
nation to destroy Jesus, pagan
Rome is represented by the
same symbol in prophecy as the devil. But Herod did not succeed
in his attempt to destroy the
man-child. Mary and Joseph fled
to Egypt and escaped the
terrible decree. The
master stroke of Satan to destroy Jesus on the cross was
foiled on that Sunday morning
when the Crucified One broke
the bonds of death in the
resurrection. Forty days later, He
was caught up to heaven in perfect fulfillment of the words
of the prophecy.
When the dragon saw that he
was not able to destroy Christ,
he turned his wrath against the
early church. According to Revelation 12:13, “When the
dragon saw that he was cast
unto the earth, he persecuted
the woman which brought
forth the man child.” At this
time, there was only a small number of Christians in all the
world, and Satan felt that he
could completely obliterate
them by persecution. Thousands
and thousands of Christians
were martyred under the terrible persecutions of the cruel
Roman emperors. But the
gospel continued to grow and
spread. The blood of the martyrs
seemed to become the seed of
the church. Paul preached his
gospel right up to the very gates
of Rome.
Israel is not the Bride of Christ.
The Church is. Jesus is the
offspring of Israel, not of the
Church. Unless you have
scripture that references Israel
as the bride of Christ, and Jesus as the son of the Church, this
doesn't add up.

For me the church today, that is followers of Christ=spiritual Israel. Made up of both jews and gentiles. We all become descendants of Abraham by faith. (John 1:12-13, Gal 3:7-8).-Understand then that those who believe are children of Abraham. The nation of Israel as it is in the M.E today has no place in eschatology.
Faithful Israel was a Church?
How can this be when the
Church was not instituted until
after the time of Christ?
When Jesus said, upon this rock
I will build my church, are you saying that he was speaking of
something had already been
built? When do you say that the
Church was established?

Let me put it this way again. Every faithful follower of God makes up His church regardless of the epoch. Would i be wrong then to say that God's true church in Noah's day was made up of only 8 people? Because they are the only ones who obeyed God and thus didn't perish. We think the word 'church' only applies to NT but as evidenced many times in OT by the adulterous woman and other times when she was faithful. (Eze 16, Hosea 1-3 ). In Christ's statement, we see that He knew physical Israel would detest Him (Zech 11:4-14) but gentiles would take the place of those who would fall away. Christ is the church's rock or foundation. Any other foundation (paul, peter, mary) is sinking sand. After His death, the disciples remained in Israel to spread the gospel but the final stroke of rejection was with the stoning of Stephen and they were scattered and the gospel fell to the gentiles (Acts 7:51-60. 8:1). All who would believe, jew or gentile, would be "rooted and built up in Him" Colossians 2:6-7
Then why do they come out of
the twelve tribes of Israel? If
Israel and the Church are the
same thing, then what do the
tribes listed represent? And
where is this representation of the twelve tribes in the Church
referenced in scripture?

Like i said, physical Israel has no bearing in ecshatology. You and i are spiritual Israelites because we believe in Christ. (Gal 3:7). Natural descent from Abraham doesn't count one bit (Eze 14:12-19, John 8:31-47) if it did, Christ wouldn't have wasted His time concentrating His ministry on Israel (Matt 15:24). The jews tried to use the same argument of natural descent, Christ trashed it.
Therefore, since there is spiritual Israel then there have to be spiritual 12 tribes from which only 12,000 from each tribe are sealed.
1 Corinthians 15:23 But every
man in his own order: Christ the
first fruits; afterward they that
are Christ's at his coming.
Those that are Christ's at his
coming, are those the 144,000? Do you think they will be the
only ones saved through the
Tribulation? Are you a Jehovah's
Witness?


No, iam not a JW and have never been. I know its very difficult to believe that such a small number will constitute Christ's church at the end of time. Even i have a hard time coming to terms with it. You know, it isn't without precedent. But is it really impossible for so few to constitute the righteous? Let's us do a quick recap.
*The flood- only 8 people were saved. The number doesn't even fill up all your fingers on both hands. So what was the worldwide population at that time? 100, 1000, 100k, 1million? How is it possible that only 8 got away? On top of that, it was an entire family. No neighbours, friends, nothing. And iam pretty sure you believe the flood story and everything that happened.
*Sodom and Gomorrah- when Abraham pleaded for the cities of the plain (they were 5, only Zoar was spared Gen 13:10-13, Hos 11:8), God said He wouldn't destroy them if 10 righteous people could be found (18:23-32). As we know, the cities were destroyed. And only 3 made it out: Lot and his daughters. How is it possible that not even 10 righteous people could be found in a combined population of 4 cities?
*the exodus- all the people, 20yrs and above counted in the first census, everyone fell in the desert, only 2 made it to Canaan. Joshua and Caleb (Numb 14:29-34 ). Ofcourse Moses, Miriam and Aaron were righteous people but they made mistakes that cost them the Promised land. Even in the parable of the 10 virgins, only 5 are ready when the bridegroom shows up. Those few examples show us that it isn't impossible for a handful of people to be found as righteous when Christ returns. Which, indeed is a sobering reality. Even Christ said : However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth? (Luke 18:8)

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we
say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive
and remain unto the coming of
the Lord shall not prevent them
which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall
descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the
archangel, and with the trump
of God: and the dead in Christ
shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and
remain shall be caught up together with them in the
clouds, to meet the Lord in the
air: and so shall we ever be with
the Lord.
If that passage describes the
end of the Tribulation, who are the saints who follow Christ
down out of Heaven to the
battle of Armageddon in
Revelation 19?

Christ is coming with thousands upon upon thousands of His holy ones. The angels (Jude 14, Matt 16:27, 25:31, Luke 9:26). Therefore, i see nothing about earthling-saints descending with Him. He is coming to resurrect the dead as stated in the verses above and to translate the living righteous. The angels are going to gather his elect from one end of the earth to another (matt 24:31)
So you believe that Israel and
the Church are one and the
same then.
Can you quickly explain how the
parable of the 10 virgins means
that the Church goes through the Tribulation?

Spiritual Israel is the church. But even within the church, some people aren't fully prepped to meet Christ (the foolish virgins). So the church is composed of ten, but only 5 are going with the bridegroom. Isa 26:20-21 and Daniel 12:1-3 gives us the answer. The time of distress, saints delivered and the righteous dead rise to life (and this shows us that righteous people aren't in heaven. They are awaiting a resurrection like the angel told Daniel aswell- 12:13 )
Matthew 24 was a warning for both them and us. Christ mentioned in sort of a mixture. Because the temple was destroyed in 70 ad and Christ and his angels didn't come in 70 ad
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Re: Armageddon!

PostSat Mar 18, 2017 4:45 am

I think most of the armageddon madness is propaganda. It creates a series of alternative Revelation-like prophecies that end up creating this maze of mirrors effect. Sometimes I wonder whether people realize how bizarre it is to be so fascinated with the concept of the world coming to an end, but will object to the idea that the Bible is true.

I think most people just want there to be another explanation because it may seem hard to obey God; however, I think this is because they are expecting that obeying God requires obeying evil men; or that God will approve evil men to have authority.

This is not true, otherwise, Saul would not have been removed from the throne. Obeying God is not like anything we have to visually compare it with, and restoring the authority of God over humanity is the intention of the prophecy. The end will bring an end to thousands of years we have been intermittently subjected to the authority of men who chose sin over obedience to God. The end is the beginning.
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Re: Armageddon!

PostSat Mar 18, 2017 5:18 am

Karlysymon wrote:
Thunderian wrote:But are you saying that Jezebel and the Great Harlot are to be
equated, symbolically, with the
chaste, virgin Bride of Christ?
Are you sure about this?

Just like what was said above, in scripture women represent religious systems. So Jezebel and the great harlot are false systems/denominations do not hold and are opposed to the true doctrine of Christ held by the true followers of Christ: those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus (Rev 12:17)


But Christianity is not a religious system like Israel had or like the Roman Catholic church promotes. Religion is human efforts to make themselves righteous -- like Adam and Eve with the fig leaves. Jesus Christ is our righteousness, and there is nothing we can do to make ourselves more righteous.

I just don't see God using the same symbol for Christ's chaste virgin bride as he uses for fallen and immoral institutions like Israel and the Roman Catholic church.


Why would the Church suddenly
be referred to as a woman,
specifically, when everywhere
else in the New Testament the
Church is referred to,
specifically, as a bride?

Can you please give me 3 verses in the NT saying the church is a bride except Rev 19:7? You should know this better (iam unmarried), a bride becomes a bride shortly before saying "i do" and after the wedding. Other than that, she remains just another woman (chaste or tramp). The admonition to a married couple in Eph 5:22-33 says nothing about bride "just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her, to make her holy". So, did Christ die for His bride or an ordinary woman? We see the same thing when God talks about Israel (physical) in Ezekiel 16.


Ephesians 5 compares Jesus to a husband and the Church to his bride, but it's not a reference to the Church being a bride? Here's the passage in question, just so I know we're reading the same one.

22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.


I don't know how you can read that and not see the Church being likened to Christ's bride.

Anyway, that is not the only place.

Paul speaks to the Church in 2 Corinthians 11:

2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

The theme of Christ as the bridegroom is pretty consistent in the New Testament, so maybe I should just ask you, if Jesus Christ is the bridegroom, who is the bride? And remember, the bride of Christ is a chaste virgin, not an unfaithful wife, so Israel is out as a candidate.

Karlysymon wrote:Iam not not going to lie to you or strain up a verse to give you what you are asking. As far as i know, there is no other scripture that mentions a woman dressed as a sun and crowned with stars. Nor can i come up with another verse that says the stars are representative of the apostles. Your use of the interpretation of Joseph's dream doesn't help either. Jacob told Joseph the moon was representative of his mother. In reality, his real mother ,Rachel, wasn't even around at that time. She died while giving birth to his brother Benjamin (Gen 35:16-18).


That makes no difference. Rachel was the only one who God intended to be Jacob's wife. Laban's perfidy caused Israel to marry Leah, and Bilhah and Zilpah were concubines -- wives of the flesh and not part of God's perfect plan, just as Hagar was a wife of the flesh to Abraham. Not part of God's plan, and this is made clear by the trouble every son other than those of Rachel got into. If Jacob had only trusted God, Rachel would have had more than two sons. Joseph and Benjamin were sons of the spirit and the rest were sons of the flesh, just as Isaac was Abraham's son of the spirit and Ishmael was his son of the flesh.

But I digress ...

If Leah was to be the mother, even she didn't make it to Egypt with Jacob to 'bow down' to Joseph (Gen 49:29-33). Or maybe his other 2 step mothers(Chap 30):Bilhah and Zilpah but there is no evidence that they made it to Egypt either. So i would take it that God merely employed those symbols to foreshadow Joseph's glory and that his father and brothers would live to see it.


So if it didn't mean that his family, ie. the nation of Israel, would be in a subordinate position to him, as the rest of Genesis depicts, what do you think Joseph's vision meant?

Therefore, in regard to the woman clothed with the sun and crowned with stars, the other verse i can think of that might help us is Daniel 12:2-3: refering to the righteous: those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens and those who LEAD MANY TO RIGHTEOUSNESS, like the stars for ever and ever.


There's no sun or moon in that passage, though, and no specific mention of the apostles. In the passage in Genesis regarding Joseph's vision, Jacob identifies himself, Joseph's mother, and Joseph's brothers as the sun, the moon and the stars. Linking Revelation 12 to Daniel 12 based on the word stars alone is a little tenuous, if you ask me, especially when there is a much more exact reference in Genesis.


There has
been only one man-child who was destined to rule all nations
and who was finally caught up
to God’s throne. It is none other
than Jesus Christ. But who tried
to kill Jesus as soon as He was
born? You answer, “Herod, the Roman king.”
Herod tried to put all the boy
babies to death in Judea in an
attempt to destroy Christ.
The Roman Empire, then, is
symbolized in Bible prophecy by the same red dragon as is the
devil himself. Because Satan
worked so closely through that
nation to destroy Jesus, pagan
Rome is represented by the
same symbol in prophecy as the devil. But Herod did not succeed
in his attempt to destroy the
man-child. Mary and Joseph fled
to Egypt and escaped the
terrible decree. The
master stroke of Satan to destroy Jesus on the cross was
foiled on that Sunday morning
when the Crucified One broke
the bonds of death in the
resurrection. Forty days later, He
was caught up to heaven in perfect fulfillment of the words
of the prophecy.


So the dragon is Satan AND Herod and the Roman Empire? Even though the passage in Revelation 12 only says the dragon is Satan? Do you see how you are adding things to scripture that aren't there to make your interpretation make sense? Where is the Roman Empire symbolized by a dragon anywhere? Did you know that Herod wasn't a Roman?

When the dragon saw that he
was not able to destroy Christ,
he turned his wrath against the
early church. According to Revelation 12:13, “When the
dragon saw that he was cast
unto the earth, he persecuted
the woman which brought
forth the man child.” At this
time, there was only a small number of Christians in all the
world, and Satan felt that he
could completely obliterate
them by persecution. Thousands
and thousands of Christians
were martyred under the terrible persecutions of the cruel
Roman emperors. But the
gospel continued to grow and
spread. The blood of the martyrs
seemed to become the seed of
the church. Paul preached his
gospel right up to the very gates
of Rome.


I don't deny any of this, but you are now making Revelation 12 something that already happened during the Roman Empire, when I thought you said it was what happens to the Church in the Tribulation. Has the Tribulation already happened?

Israel is not the Bride of Christ.
The Church is. Jesus is the
offspring of Israel, not of the
Church. Unless you have
scripture that references Israel
as the bride of Christ, and Jesus as the son of the Church, this
doesn't add up.

For me the church today, that is followers of Christ=spiritual Israel. Made up of both jews and gentiles. We all become descendants of Abraham by faith. (John 1:12-13, Gal 3:7-8).-Understand then that those who believe are children of Abraham. The nation of Israel as it is in the M.E today has no place in eschatology.


OK, if that is the case, explain Romans 11:25-26. Specifically, what is the fullness of the Gentiles that Paul is referring to?

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:


And what about all the prophecy regarding Israel's revival as a nation in the End Times? There's kind of a lot.

Faithful Israel was a Church?
How can this be when the
Church was not instituted until
after the time of Christ?
When Jesus said, upon this rock
I will build my church, are you saying that he was speaking of
something had already been
built? When do you say that the
Church was established?

Let me put it this way again. Every faithful follower of God makes up His church regardless of the epoch.


Where do you find this in scripture?

Would i be wrong then to say that God's true church in Noah's day was made up of only 8 people?


Yes, you would be wrong. Noah and his family are not part of the Church. If they were, why did Noah offer sacrifices? As the Church, Jesus Christ is our sacrifice. If Noah or anyone else in the Old Testament were part of the Church, what were their sacrifices for?

We think the word 'church' only applies to NT but as evidenced many times in OT by the adulterous woman and other times when she was faithful. (Eze 16, Hosea 1-3 ).


How can the Church be an adulterous woman and also a chaste virgin?

In Christ's statement, we see that He knew physical Israel would detest Him (Zech 11:4-14) but gentiles would take the place of those who would fall away.


Which is why the Church is a separate entity from Israel, hence the term "fullness of the Gentiles". When the fullness of the Gentiles is complete, the Church is complete, Christ's bride is complete, and the Rapture happens. Then Israel is once again God's focus, and the process of their redemption begins. This is scriptural.

Christ is the church's rock or foundation. Any other foundation (paul, peter, mary) is sinking sand. After His death, the disciples remained in Israel to spread the gospel but the final stroke of rejection was with the stoning of Stephen and they were scattered and the gospel fell to the gentiles (Acts 7:51-60. 8:1). All who would believe, jew or gentile, would be "rooted and built up in Him" Colossians 2:6-7


Yes, and this only means that Jews during this age can become part of the Church, but nowhere in the Bible does the Church ever become part of Israel.

Then why do they come out of
the twelve tribes of Israel? If
Israel and the Church are the
same thing, then what do the
tribes listed represent? And
where is this representation of the twelve tribes in the Church
referenced in scripture?

Like i said, physical Israel has no bearing in ecshatology. You and i are spiritual Israelites because we believe in Christ. (Gal 3:7). Natural descent from Abraham doesn't count one bit (Eze 14:12-19, John 8:31-47) if it did, Christ wouldn't have wasted His time concentrating His ministry on Israel (Matt 15:24). The jews tried to use the same argument of natural descent, Christ trashed it.
Therefore, since there is spiritual Israel then there have to be spiritual 12 tribes from which only 12,000 from each tribe are sealed.


Where can I find that part about 12 spiritual tribes in the Bible?

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every
man in his own order: Christ the
first fruits; afterward they that
are Christ's at his coming.
Those that are Christ's at his
coming, are those the 144,000? Do you think they will be the
only ones saved through the
Tribulation? Are you a Jehovah's
Witness?


No, iam not a JW and have never been. I know its very difficult to believe that such a small number will constitute Christ's church at the end of time. Even i have a hard time coming to terms with it. You know, it isn't without precedent. But is it really impossible for so few to constitute the righteous?


I don't deny the righteous will be few, I just deny any of them constitute the Church, because the Church will have already been raptured. The number of believing dead during the Tribulation will be enormous, but not part of the Church.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we
say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive
and remain unto the coming of
the Lord shall not prevent them
which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall
descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the
archangel, and with the trump
of God: and the dead in Christ
shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and
remain shall be caught up together with them in the
clouds, to meet the Lord in the
air: and so shall we ever be with
the Lord.
If that passage describes the
end of the Tribulation, who are the saints who follow Christ
down out of Heaven to the
battle of Armageddon in
Revelation 19?

Christ is coming with thousands upon upon thousands of His holy ones. The angels (Jude 14, Matt 16:27, 25:31, Luke 9:26). Therefore, i see nothing about earthling-saints descending with Him. He is coming to resurrect the dead as stated in the verses above and to translate the living righteous. The angels are going to gather his elect from one end of the earth to another (matt 24:31)


But the armies are clothed in fine linen, white and clean. Earlier in the same chapter, we see someone else clothed in fine, white linen. The bride of Christ.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.


So, again, who do you say Christ's bride is, and why would the angels be clothed in the righteousness of the saints?

Spiritual Israel is the church.


Not found anywhere in scripture.

But even within the church, some people aren't fully prepped to meet Christ (the foolish virgins). So the church is composed of ten, but only 5 are going with the bridegroom.


Also not scriptural, and in contradiction to what you said earlier about the Church being made up of true and faithful followers of God -- the righteous. Are there different levels to righteousness? How can this be, if Jesus Christ alone is our righteousness?
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