Karlysymon wrote:Thunderian wrote:I just don't see God using the
same symbol for Christ's chaste virgin bride as he uses for fallen
and immoral institutions like
Israel and the Roman Catholic
church.
You didn't answer my question. Did Christ die for a virgin or an ordinary woman?
Christ died for us. When we accept his sacrifice, we become a part of the Church, which is always portrayed symbolically as Christ's virgin bride, because of the righteousness he imparts to us at salvation.
Eph 5 says nothing about a bride. It clearly says "He gave up Himself for her".
The passage is talking about a husband and wife, and likening their relationship to the one between Christ and the Church. How do you not see that the image of a betrothed couple is consistent with how Christ and the Church are portrayed in the Bible? The passage literally says that Christ and the Church are husband and wife. Is my wife not also my bride?
When Christ died on the cross, what was "her" status? And you keep saying the Church existed after Christ. So who was she that He was dying for?
As I said, Jesus Christ died for
us. There is no unbelieving body that encompasses all unbelievers that is represented by a woman in the Bible. There was the future Church, but there was no "her" that we were all part of before his death on our behalf. Remember Romans 5:8 -
But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.Anyone who believes in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ becomes part of the Church. A person could not be a member of the Church before Christ's death and resurrection because the offer of salvation through Christ's atoning sacrifice had not yet been made to sinners.
In regard to Joseph's dream (iam sure you re-read the chapter). Why does Jacob say the moon represents his mother.
Joseph's father says, when he hears of the dream:
What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?Yet, in the end, she never made it to Egypt?
He clearly says the moon is Joseph's mother. I don't know what else to say.
As i said before, the dream was a foreshadowing of Joseph's glory. Jacob may not have known it at the time but in a way, God was telling him that he would see his son again. The dreams were also meant to 'cushion' Joseph in the difficult times that he would endure. (Iam speaking from experience in this case). To give him hope that the hell he would endure for 13yrs wouldn't last forever. He had the dreams at 17. Continuing to use Joseph's dream doesn't help in explaining the 12 stars in the woman's crown. Besides, they were 11 stars bowing to one star.
The eleven stars are Joseph's eleven brothers. Joseph is the twelfth star. There are twelve tribes of Israel,
each named after one of Israel's sons. No one on earth interprets this passage the way you are doing now. It is universally accepted as a prophecy of the nation of Israel, which began with Jacob and his twelve sons, bowing down to one of the sons, Joseph. This is fulfilled a few chapters later in Genesis. How can you say it is anything other than what it clearly is?
Remember that the dream was paired with another one:
7 For, behold, we were binding sheaves in the field, and, lo, my sheaf arose, and also stood upright; and, behold, your sheaves stood round about, and made obeisance to my sheaf.
8 And his brethren said to him, Shalt thou indeed reign over us? or shalt thou indeed have dominion over us? And they hated him yet the more for his dreams, and for his words.Is one dream interpreted as meaning Joseph will have dominion over his brothers, the nation of Israel, and the other one means something completely different? Joseph's eleven brothers see themselves as sheaves bowing down to him. Joseph's father sees himself, his wife and his eleven other sons as the sun, moon and stars bowing down to Joseph, who is also represented by a star. Can you please just admit that the image of the sun, moon and stars is that of Israel, his wife (even though she's dead) and his sons?
If Jesus Christ is the bridegroom, who is the bride and remember the bride of Christ is a chaste virgin..
You are correct. The church is. And what does scripture say about the 144,000? "These are those who didn't defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure.... No lie was found in their mouths: they are blameless" Rev 14:4-5. In chap 15, they were victorious over the beast, his image and the number of his name. How do we know they are the same group spoken of here? They sing the song of Moses and the Lamb.
The 144,000 have the name of the Father written on their foreheads. If they are the Church, and the bride of Christ, why do they have his Father's name written on them?
The ones in chapter 15 sing the song of Moses, which would be the law, and the song of the Lamb, which is Christ's salvation. Why would the Church sing both these songs? I say it's because, during the Tribulation, salvation will be by faith in Christ's death, and in keeping the law of Moses. Why do
you think they are singing these two songs?
Remember in chap 14, no one could learn that song except them (vs 3).
It's three different songs. The song that no one can learn is sung by the 144,000, but the songs sung in Revelation 15 we do know, because we are told what they are: the song of Moses and the song of the Lamb.
And what about all the prophecy regarding Israel's
revival as a nation in the End
Times? There's kind of a lot.
Israel as it is in M:E has no bearing in eschatology.
This is manifestly untrue.
Prophecy tells us that in the End Times there will be a regathering of Jews to the land of Israel. (Deuteronomy 30:3; Isaiah 43:6; Ezekiel 34:11-13; 36:24; 37:1-14) There is no doubt this is being fulfilled at this time. Not only have the Jews become the physical, literal nation of Israel again, they are back in the land that was theirs 2000 years ago, they are again in possession of the city of Jerusalem, and today, there are more Jews living in Israel then there are living elsewhere. This is ancient prophecy come true before our very eyes. If this is not a fulfillment of these prophecies, what do these prophecies mean?
And these are not obscure verses that were retroactively interpreted to justify Israel's "occupation" of Palestine. The rebirth of the nation of Israel in their land exactly as is happening now is something that prophecy scholars have been looking for since Jerusalem was sacked in 70AD. As years went by and Israel was still scattered, it gave rise to the heresy that the Church is the inheritor of Israel's promises.
We are told the antichrist will make a 7-year covenant of peace with Israel (Isaiah 28:18; Daniel 9:27). If Israel is no longer in the picture, what is Daniel talking about? Who does the antichrist make peace with?
The Bible says the Temple will be rebuilt in Jerusalem during the Tribulation. (Daniel 9:27; Matthew 24:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4; Revelation 11:1) Why would it be? If Israel doesn't exist, and Christians have no use for a Temple, what is the point of building it?
Finally, God tells us that Israel will eventually recognize Jesus as their Messiah (Zechariah 12:10). Israel will be regenerated, restored, and regathered (Jeremiah 33:8; Ezekiel 11:17; Romans 11:26). If the Church is Israel, why does it need to recognize Christ and be regenerated, restored and regathered? How is it that a body made up of believers in God, as you agree the Church is, is still depicted as rejecting Christ and needing to be redeemed? Are we not in Christ already, redeemed by his blood?
Revival of Israel as a nation, never going to happen.
How can you say that when Israel is, at this moment, a revived nation? More seriously, how can you say that when God himself has said it would happen?
Someone once said, if you are waiting for the entire church to be revived, that time will never come! If that can be true for my local church, same would go for Israel.
I don't understand this. The Church doesn't need revival. Churches might, but THE Church is sanctified and made righteous already by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. We can't lose that. Israel doesn't currently have the spirit of God, but God promises that she will again one day, that she will be revived.
Christ said "I have other sheep that 1en't of this sheep pen. I must bring them also" john 10:16. Those prophecies, i believe are about Spiritual Israel: you, me and the christian jew.
So can the sheep in the pen and the other sheep both be Israel? The sheep in the pen were Israel. The other sheep are the Gentiles. Believing Jews can be part of the other flock, but the Church is never in the Jewish pen.
Symbolised by the Laodicean church. A revival has to happen to make ready a people for the Lord. Thats why He said He would send the prophet Elijah before that great and dreadful day of the Lord (Malachi 4:5). Clearly a translated Elijah isn't going to return to earth to revive a Middle eastern nation of Israel.
Really?
Revelation 11:
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.The two witnesses are Moses and Elijah.
Malachi 4:
4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:Both were present at Christ's transfiguration, which is a picture of his second advent. The descriptions of their works match. Elijah stopped the rain for three and half years (or
a thousand two hundred and threescore days, the length of the Great Tribulation). Moses turned water to blood and brought plagues down. Both stood before the "God" of the earth.
And the place where our Lord was crucified is Jerusalem, the capital of Israel, so clearly a translated Elijah IS going to return to earth to revive a Middle eastern nation of Israel.
As you know, Elijah's ministry was about revival, as was that of John the Baptist. Christ isn't returning until such a work has been done.
I agree about Elijah, but John the Baptist preached repentance. Either way, Christ is not returning until Elijah's work is done. And just so you know, I believe the 144,000 witnesses will do their work during the first half of the seven-year Tribulation, then be translated, and Moses and Elijah will tag in for the last three and half years.
Yes, you would be wrong. Noah
and his family are not part of
the Church. If they were, why
did Noah offer sacrifices? As the
Church, Jesus Christ is our
sacrifice. If Noah or anyone else in the Old Testament were part
of the Church, what were their
sacrifices for?
Fine. If iam wrong, let me ask you this. When Elijah thought he was the only one left on God's side, God told him i have 7000 who haven't bowed the knee to Baal. Imagine you are narrating that story to your son, how would you describe that group or any other group that has pledged allegiance to God? If you say "people on God's side", how do we call "people on God's side in our day"?
People on God's side today are the Church. People on God's side before the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ were not, because, as I have said, the Church was not instituted until Christ died and rose again. I would call people on God's side before the Church was instituted "believers".
How can the Church be an
adulterous woman and also a
chaste virgin?
God is willing to overlook and wipe away our spiritual adultery if we are willing to repent.
Do you believe we can lose our salvation?
Aren't we supposed to die to sin and be born again? As though we have never been defiled by sin? Sanctification (to be made holy) is a life long work.
In Christ, we are sanctified. We strive to live a sanctified life because we are still subject to the temptations of the flesh, but our souls are cut away from our flesh by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and the holiness imparted to us at salvation cannot be lost.
I believe there will be no rapture.
That's OK. I believe you still qualify for it.
Christ is coming to resurrect the righteous dead and redeem the living righteous. Is righteousness worn as garment. Can you tell your pastor is righteous just by him standing before you?
Yes, righteousness is worn as a garment, as we are told in Revelation 19, but we don't become clothed in righteousness until we are raptured and are with Christ. The righteousness of the saints is the wedding dress of the bride of Christ.
Christ is coming with His angels, always depicted as dressed in white/linen. Rev 19 clearly stated that the white raiment means righteousness. "Abraham believed and it was credited to him righteousness".
Revelation 19:7 - Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Revelation 19:14 - And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.If clean, white linen is the righteousness of the saints and the clothing of the bride of Christ in verses 7 and 8, what makes you think it's the clothing of the angels in verse 14? I'm not disputing that angels are righteous or that anyone else could be clothed in white, but in this particular passage, how do we get from saints to angels?
Where can I find that part about
12 spiritual tribes in the Bible?
It isn't there. Its only logical. If ancient Israel was made up of 12 tribes then it goes to show that spiritual Israel would be made up of 12 spiritual tribes, to which 144,000 belong.
Why do you get to infer things from scripture, and I have to use verses and stuff? I still haven't seen you quote a single verse that says the Church has become spiritual Israel.
And they are chaste!
That doesn't make them the Church!
Angels are righteous. Hence they were white linen.
They do wear white linen, but Revelation 19 doesn't mention angels. Only the bride of Christ and the saints.
As for Rev 12, lemme put it this way: the dragon gave the sea beast his power, throne and authority and men worshipped the dragon because of that beast (Rev 13:2, 4). The earth beast exercised all its authority on behalf of the sea beast. So these two entities are doing the drago's bidding. Same as Nero. Even if Herod wasn't roman, he did Satan's bidding and existed in the Roman epoch.
Are the events of Revelation 12 something that has happened already, or something that is still to come?
Just wanted to say, thanx for the converstion (not that its ending) but i've ended up examining and going down roads i never thought i would go. Thank you and God bless!
Thanks and God bless you, too! I haven't gone this deeply into these topics for a long time. It's been very rewarding for me as well.