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Armageddon!

Theological and spiritual discussions within the context of a religious framework.
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Thunderian

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Re: Armageddon!

PostSat Mar 25, 2017 5:18 pm

Take your time, brother. One thing I like about this board right now is we can make a post and come back a day later and it's not 15 pages back in the thread, with a bunch of derails and bickering clogging things up. This feels like an actual discussion rather than pages and pages of flaming and drive-by sniping.
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Re: Armageddon!

PostSat Mar 25, 2017 5:50 pm

Thunderian wrote:Take your time, brother. One thing I like about this board right now is we can make a post and come back a day later and it's not 15 pages back in the thread, with a bunch of derails and bickering clogging things up. This feels like an actual discussion rather than pages and pages of flaming and drive-by sniping.


Just coming here to say YES I love that about these boards too :Thumbup:

It's nice having a discussion here. It actually goes somewhere.
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Karlysymon

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Re: Armageddon!

PostMon Mar 27, 2017 9:31 pm

Thunderian wrote:It is also the amount of time given for the ministry of the two witnesses, whose ministry''s end coincides with the return of Jesus Christ
and the battle of Armageddon.
It is also the time given for the 144,000 witnesses to spread the word of God.

So that group is going to spread the word right up to the very end, like, 5mins before Christ descends. Right? What are we to make of this and when will it happen? A famine for the Word of God. Amos 8:11-12, the 5 Foolish virgins, Luke 13:25, Isaiah 55:6.
I Said: The bible clearly explains the two witness are two olive trees and two
lampstand. So how can you
say its Moses and Elijah?
You Said: The olive tree is a symbol of Israel (the two witnesses are from Israel, and sent to Israel), and the lamp stand is a symbol of witnessing for God (the two
witnesses are witnesses for God).
I say the two witnesses are
Moses and Elijah because God
referenced them both in Malachi when he said he would send Elijah before the day of the Lord. Because the miracles the two witnesses perform are the same that Moses (plagues and blood)
and Elijah (fire and drought)
were given to perform. Because they were both at Christ's transfiguration, which was a picture of his second advent.
Because both stood before God. And because, for what it's worth, Jewish tradition has always held that both Moses and Elijah would return to Israel one day.

I hope it will be the REAL Elijah and Moses, not the fake ones. Anyway, you might be wrong in your explanation of the two witnesses. Zechariah 4 has the explanation for these 2 symbols and there is nothing about the 2 prophets.
Do you believe we can lose our salvation?

Yes we can.
Are you kidding me, Jay Dyer, whoever you are? I want to cuss right now, but I won't.
I don't follow John Hagee. I think he's a wolf, cashing in on ignorant American evangelicals.
I don't know anyone who
listens to him. He's obviously
the reason why people like you think that people like me are mindless idiots, drooling all over Israel.


Yes, Jay Dyer. The way you love VC (okay i love VC too) is the way i love Jay. He does excellent work and his article has some good points even though i totally disagree with him on the Catholic church. You never refuted the parable of the tenants (kingdom taken away from them).
Regardless of natural descent, if we do not produce spiritual fruit, its game over. Hagee owns a mega-church so obviously someone is listening to him. Problem is, there are 1000 others like him and who are very influential in DC and i find that your(s) and their interpretation of last- day events is a LITTLE TOO CONVINIENT for American foreign policy in the Middle East. Thanx for your timeline and here's mine:
*Christians are sealed and the angels let lose the four winds of heaven.
*Satan shows up in the skies pretending to be Christ. (the poweful delusion of 2 Thess 2:11). Only those well versed in the scriptures will be able to tell that its a fake christ. Many people will believe that its Christ and bow to him. How people react to this delusion seals their fate. After that....
*Christ steps down as intercessor for mankind in heaven, hence no one can enter the temple Rev 15:5-8
*A famine for the word commences. People desperately long to read and understand Scripture but its too late. They've despised the HolySpirit and He can't help them out.
*The 7 plagues are poured out. They devastate the earth.
*Christ appears on the skies with thousands of His holy ones destroying the wicked in the process. He resurrects the dead saints and together with the living saints ascend to heaven.
*Earth becomes formless and empty as in the beginning (Jer 4:23-28), man becomes more rare than the gold of Ophir (Isa 13:9-13). It becomes uninhabitable because the sun and moon stop shinning, the sky will be rolled back as a scroll. The landscape will be a mess: mountains and islands will disappear. And this will Satan's prison for 1000. (Isa 24:18-23)
*After the millenium, the wicked dead are resurrected (the 2nd death) with Satan at their head are marshalled against Christ (Gog and Magog). They are destroyed by fire.
*Earth is renewed and we come back and live here (Isa 65:17-25)
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Thunderian

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Re: Armageddon!

PostWed Mar 29, 2017 6:45 pm

Karlysymon wrote:
Thunderian wrote:It is also the amount of time given for the ministry of the two witnesses, whose ministry''s end coincides with the return of Jesus Christ
and the battle of Armageddon.
It is also the time given for the 144,000 witnesses to spread the word of God.

So that group is going to spread the word right up to the very end, like, 5mins before Christ descends. Right? What are we to make of this and when will it happen? A famine for the Word of God. Amos 8:11-12, the 5 Foolish virgins, Luke 13:25, Isaiah 55:6.


No, I believe the 144,000 are sealed at the beginning of the Tribulation and are witnesses for the first half, then are translated and the two witnesses begin their commission. The two witnesses are killed three and a half days before Christ's return for the battle of Armageddon, at which point they are resurrected.

I'm not sure about Amos 8 and the famine for God's word. That may very well describe today, but I can't say for sure.

The foolish virgins are believers during the Tribulation who aren't keeping God's commandments. During the Church age, we are saved by grace through faith and don't lose our salvation if we stray. During the Tribulation, old school OT salvation comes back into effect, and believers can lose it if they don't stay faithful to the Lord. This is what James was speaking of when he said that faith without works is dead. Believers are still saved by faith, but the grace is not available as it is to us today, so they have to prove their faith through works.

Isaiah 55:6 tells us to seek the grace of Jesus Christ NOW, because it won't be here forever. As soon as the Rapture takes place, the age of grace is gone with the Church.

I Said: The bible clearly explains the two witness are two olive trees and two
lampstand. So how can you
say its Moses and Elijah?
You Said: The olive tree is a symbol of Israel (the two witnesses are from Israel, and sent to Israel), and the lamp stand is a symbol of witnessing for God (the two
witnesses are witnesses for God).
I say the two witnesses are
Moses and Elijah because God
referenced them both in Malachi when he said he would send Elijah before the day of the Lord. Because the miracles the two witnesses perform are the same that Moses (plagues and blood)
and Elijah (fire and drought)
were given to perform. Because they were both at Christ's transfiguration, which was a picture of his second advent.
Because both stood before God. And because, for what it's worth, Jewish tradition has always held that both Moses and Elijah would return to Israel one day.


I hope it will be the REAL Elijah and Moses, not the fake ones. Anyway, you might be wrong in your explanation of the two witnesses. Zechariah 4 has the explanation for these 2 symbols and there is nothing about the 2 prophets.


I am not sure where anyone gets the idea that there will be two fake witnesses. I don't see that in the Bible anywhere.

Zechariah 4 is a prophecy about the two witnesses.

11 Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
12 And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
14 Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.


Revelation 11:
3 And I will give power unto [anoint] my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.



Do you believe we can lose our salvation?

Yes we can.


Under what circumstances could we lose it in an age of grace? Didn't Jesus say that no one could take his sheep from his hand?


Are you kidding me, Jay Dyer, whoever you are? I want to cuss right now, but I won't.
I don't follow John Hagee. I think he's a wolf, cashing in on ignorant American evangelicals.
I don't know anyone who
listens to him. He's obviously
the reason why people like you think that people like me are mindless idiots, drooling all over Israel.


Yes, Jay Dyer. The way you love VC (okay i love VC too) is the way i love Jay. He does excellent work and his article has some good points even though i totally disagree with him on the Catholic church. You never refuted the parable of the tenants (kingdom taken away from them).
Regardless of natural descent, if we do not produce spiritual fruit, its game over. Hagee owns a mega-church so obviously someone is listening to him. Problem is, there are 1000 others like him and who are very influential in DC and i find that your(s) and their interpretation of last- day events is a LITTLE TOO CONVINIENT for American foreign policy in the Middle East.


First, don't tell anyone, but I don't love VC. There are a few reasons, and I am grateful that he keeps starting boards that attract interesting people, but I don't love him by any stretch.

How can Dyer do excellent work and still have anything to do with the Catholic church? The Bible says to have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. If someone needs to go to Catholic tradition and writings to make a scriptural argument, that is a huge red flag for me. The Catholic church has led millions away from Christ. What could make anyone think they could have spiritual insight into any doctrinal matters?

The parable of the tenants was directed at Israel's spiritual leaders. They were teaching a false word of God and so the kingdom was taken from them.

There are lots of churches that are packed to the rafters that are teaching wrong things or have bad motives. As I said, I don't follow Hagee at all, and have never listened to one of his sermons, but what I see of him does not impress me. He wraps himself in the Israeli flag for the sake of his own gain, and I don't agree with that.

I also disagree that my interpretation of last days events is convenient for American foreign policy. The last days have nothing to do with America and their interference in the Middle East has only cost them trillions of dollars and the blood of their young men and women. I spent the months after 9/11 and before the invasion of Iraq trying to convince American Christians that the action they were about to take would only cause more death and destruction for everyone. I thought Bush's "fight them over there so we don't have to fight them over here" was one of the stupidest and most callous things I have ever heard anyone say, and the fact that American Christians supported this policy shows how deceived so many of them were and are.

Please stop tarring me with the brush of American evangelical Zionism. I would have thought my position has been made clear, but if it's not, then let me say it now: America should stay the completely out of the Middle East. Israel is in God's hands. The best thing American Christians can do for Israel is pray for their salvation.
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Re: Armageddon!

PostSat Apr 01, 2017 9:59 pm

Hello Thunderian, please pardon my MIA.
Thunderian wrote:No, I believe the 144,000 are
sealed at the beginning of the
Tribulation and are witnesses
for the first half, then are
translated and the two
witnesses begin their commission. The two witnesses are killed three and a half days before Christ's return for the battle of Armageddon, at which
point they are resurrected.
I'm not sure about Amos 8 and the famine for God's word. That may very well describe today, but I can't say for sure.

In other words, there's going to be 2 translations, right? First for the church, then for the 144, 000. Please present clear scripture on this doctrine. Different groups of saints caught up to heaven at different times. As for Amos 8, i have touched on it briefly in my response to GB (his new thread).
During the Church age, we are saved by grace through faith and don't lose our salvation if we stray.
During the Tribulation, old
school OT salvation comes back into effect, and believers can lose it if they don't stay faithful to the Lord.

I would expect the rules to be unchangeable. Either salvation can be lost or not regardless of the 'dispensation'. What am i to make of these warnings for the church-age? 1 Corinth 10:11-12, Heb 6:1-8, 12:25-26, Rev 3:15-19, Luke 13:5-9, Psa 32:6(Isa 55:6) Deut 29:18-19.
This is what James was speaking of when he said
that faith without works is
dead. Believers are still saved by faith, but the grace is not
available as it is to us today, so they have to prove their faith through works.

It is a fundamental law that works or actions corroborate words or beliefs. Without actions everything else is dead. Ofcourse in regard to our spirituality, our works cannot save us but how do we prove what we believe? How do we practise our faith? Its all works! If a word/promise isn't accompanied by actions, it is dead (a lie). If we claim to love the Lord or hate sin, naturally we will act like it. If i hate cheese or coffee, naturally i will act by not touching them. So works/actions count!
I am not sure where anyone
gets the idea that there will be two fake witnesses. I don't see that in the Bible anywhere.

I didn't say there will be 2 fake witnesses. You said Jewish tradition holds that Elijah and Moses will return to earth to complete some redemption work. Even though i maintain that ; for me, its unbiblical. I said that i hope they will be the REAL ones because we cannot underestimate our adversary. If he can impersonate Christ, what makes you think he cannot impersonate the patriarchs or prophets of old to deceive the masses?
Under what circumstances could we lose it in an age of grace? Didn't Jesus say that no one could take his sheep from his hand?

I've presented verses above for you to explain to me..
How can Dyer do excellent work and still have anything to do with the Catholic church? The Bible says to have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of
darkness, but rather reprove them. If someone needs to go to Catholic tradition and writings to make a scriptural argument, that is a huge red flag for me.

Dyer may subscribe to Catholicism but that doesn't diminish my appreciation of his excellent work which i've read a great deal of over the last couple years. Besides, God is calling his people out of Babylon (Rev 18, Jer 51), so he will heed the call.

I also disagree that my
interpretation of last days
events is convenient for
American foreign policy.

well, if you believe Gog and Magog are Russia, Iran, China who will descend on Israel to annihilate her,.....but its the elites who are trying to rush the Second Advent
Image
Image

Please stop tarring me with the brush of American evangelical Zionism. I would have thought my position has been made clear, but if it's not, then let me say it now: America should stay the completely out of the Middle
East. Israel is in God's hands. The best thing American Christians can do for Israel is pray for their salvation.

Point taken and iam sorry.
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Re: Armageddon!

PostMon Apr 03, 2017 5:16 am

Karlysymon wrote:Hello Thunderian, please pardon my MIA.
Thunderian wrote:No, I believe the 144,000 are
sealed at the beginning of the
Tribulation and are witnesses
for the first half, then are
translated and the two
witnesses begin their commission. The two witnesses are killed three and a half days before Christ's return for the battle of Armageddon, at which
point they are resurrected.
I'm not sure about Amos 8 and the famine for God's word. That may very well describe today, but I can't say for sure.

In other words, there's going to be 2 translations, right? First for the church, then for the 144, 000. Please present clear scripture on this doctrine. Different groups of saints caught up to heaven at different times. As for Amos 8, i have touched on it briefly in my response to GB (his new thread).


The order of events in Revelation 14 seem to suggest that the 144,000 are in Heaven before the end of the Tribulation. I am not dogmatic about this, and i don't think it makes a difference overall. It's just my personal belief and I can't prove it. From scripture, it does look like the two witnesses perform their ministry in the last half of the Tribulation, and it does look like the 144,000 are sealed at the beginning of it, so that's where that thinking comes from on my part.

During the Church age, we are saved by grace through faith and don't lose our salvation if we stray.
During the Tribulation, old
school OT salvation comes back into effect, and believers can lose it if they don't stay faithful to the Lord.

I would expect the rules to be unchangeable. Either salvation can be lost or not regardless of the 'dispensation'. What am i to make of these warnings for the church-age? 1 Corinth 10:11-12, Heb 6:1-8, 12:25-26, Rev 3:15-19, Luke 13:5-9, Psa 32:6(Isa 55:6) Deut 29:18-19.



We have kind of been over this already. You think everyone who was ever a believer is in the Church, and I don't know how they can be in the Church when it wasn't around until after Christ ascended.

1 Corinthians 10:11-12 is not about losing salvation, but about resisting temptation. Hebrews is written for believing Jews during the Tribulation, Revelation 3:15-19 is about an unbelieving church, in Luke 13:5-9 Jesus is speaking to Jews before his crucifixion, when you could still lose your salvation, Psalms 32 is about salvation during the Tribulation, Isaiah 55:6 is for believers now, and tells us to get saved now, while we still can, and Deuteronomy 29 is to Israel in the Old Testament when they could lose their temptation.

Why is it that you put dispensation in quotes but not church age? The Church age is a dispensation, and as I pointed out, not all the scripture you listed is addressed to the Church.

The Church age is about grace through faith, and not of works. We walk by faith and not by sight. In the Tribulation, anyone can read the Bible and see that it's coming true, not to mention the angels flying over the earth and shouting the message of salvation to the world. It'll be hard to avoid seeing that, and you won't need to rely on faith because the evidence of God will be impossible to ignore.

This is what James was speaking of when he said
that faith without works is
dead. Believers are still saved by faith, but the grace is not
available as it is to us today, so they have to prove their faith through works.

It is a fundamental law that works or actions corroborate words or beliefs. Without actions everything else is dead. Ofcourse in regard to our spirituality, our works cannot save us but how do we prove what we believe? How do we practise our faith? Its all works! If a word/promise isn't accompanied by actions, it is dead (a lie). If we claim to love the Lord or hate sin, naturally we will act like it. If i hate cheese or coffee, naturally i will act by not touching them. So works/actions count!


Works and actions do count, but not toward our salvation. Why does Paul say that we are saved by grace, through faith, and not of works? You either accept that, or you throw it out. But if you throw it out, how do accept anything else in the Bible?

Yes, if our faith is real, it will result in good works, but Paul's words to the Church are clear. We are saved by grace alone.

I am not sure where anyone
gets the idea that there will be two fake witnesses. I don't see that in the Bible anywhere.

I didn't say there will be 2 fake witnesses. You said Jewish tradition holds that Elijah and Moses will return to earth to complete some redemption work. Even though i maintain that ; for me, its unbiblical. I said that i hope they will be the REAL ones because we cannot underestimate our adversary. If he can impersonate Christ, what makes you think he cannot impersonate the patriarchs or prophets of old to deceive the masses?


I said, at the end of a list of scriptural evidence, that for what it was worth, there was a Jewish tradition that Elijah and Moses would return in the last days. Jewish tradition can add flavor to our understanding of scripture, but I would never hang any interpretation from it. Nothing else I posted was not solidly from the Bible. God said in Malachi he would send Elijah in the last days, and I noted that the signs the witnesses are able to perform mirror exactly the ones performed by Moses and Elijah. There is no warning in the Bible that the two witnesses might be from Satan and all the evidence points to them being those two prophets, with Moses representing the Law, and Elijah representing the Prophets (yet more evidence that Old Testament salvation is back in effect then).

Under what circumstances could we lose it in an age of grace? Didn't Jesus say that no one could take his sheep from his hand?

I've presented verses above for you to explain to me..


I responded. Do you know how we can lose our salvation when as Christians, we are in Christ, and he is in us, and he says that no one can take us from his hand? That seems pretty secure to me? Why doesn't it to you?


How can Dyer do excellent work and still have anything to do with the Catholic church? The Bible says to have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of
darkness, but rather reprove them. If someone needs to go to Catholic tradition and writings to make a scriptural argument, that is a huge red flag for me.


Dyer may subscribe to Catholicism but that doesn't diminish my appreciation of his excellent work which i've read a great deal of over the last couple years. Besides, God is calling his people out of Babylon (Rev 18, Jer 51), so he will heed the call.



Not convincing. My ancestors were burned at the stake by the Catholic church and Dyer calls my scriptural beliefs, which predate the Catholic church's perverted doctrine by hundreds of years, moronic gobbledygook. Do you think the argument I've made over this thread is moronic gobbledygook? :lol:

I also disagree that my
interpretation of last days
events is convenient for
American foreign policy.


well, if you believe Gog and Magog are Russia, Iran, China who will descend on Israel to annihilate her,.....but its the elites who are trying to rush the Second Advent

Yeah, you posted that on the other thread, and I told you what I thought of it there. Did you actually read that? Do you think the characterization of Christian beliefs in that article is honest and accurate? As I said on the other board, "pre-Trib Rapture has been taught since the early days of the Church, in a time much closer to the destruction of the nation of Israel than it's rebirth, and the pre-Trib view is believed and taught in churches all over the world, by millions of Christians in Asia, Africa and Europe who don't know John Hagee from a hole in the ground."

Please stop tarring me with the brush of American evangelical Zionism. I would have thought my position has been made clear, but if it's not, then let me say it now: America should stay the completely out of the Middle
East. Israel is in God's hands. The best thing American Christians can do for Israel is pray for their salvation.

Point taken and iam sorry.


I forgive you and I'm sorry for getting worked up about it. :smile:
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Karlysymon

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Re: Armageddon!

PostMon Apr 03, 2017 7:14 pm

Hi Thunderian

Thunderian wrote:The order of events in
Revelation 14 seem to suggest that the 144,000 are in Heaven before the end of the Tribulation. I am not dogmatic about this, and i don't think it makes a difference overall. It's
just my personal belief and I
can't prove it. From scripture, it does look like the two
witnesses perform their
ministry in the last half of the Tribulation, and it does look like the 144,000 are sealed at the beginning of it, so that's where that thinking comes from on my part.

It can't just be your personal belief. This is what sets people up for disappointment. Your beliefs need to backed-up by scripture. Christ demonstrated this to the 2 disciples on the road to Emmaus (Luke 24:25-27).
You think everyone
who was ever a believer is in
the Church, and I don't know
how they can be in the Church when it wasn't around until after Christ ascended.
1 Corinthians 10:11-12 is not
about losing salvation, but
about resisting temptation.
Hebrews is written for believing Jews during the Tribulation, Revelation 3:15-19 is about an unbelieving church, in Luke13:5-9 Jesus is speaking to Jews before his crucifixion, when you
could still lose your salvation,
Psalms 32 is about salvation during the Tribulation, Isaiah
55:6 is for believers now, and
tells us to get saved now, while we still can, and Deuteronomy 29 is to Israel in the Old Testament when they could lose their temptation.


You just contradicted yourself here. Somehow, the Psalmist and Isaiah's statements were directed at the church which wouldn't be in existence until after several centuries. Isaiah wasn't even prophesying in those verses. So i don't know why you would say that.
not to mention
the angels flying over the earth and shouting the message of salvation to the world. It'll be hard to avoid seeing that, and you won't need to rely on faith
because the evidence of God will be impossible to ignore.

you mean we are to witness angels literally flying in the sky shouting the message of salvation?
God said in Malachi he would send Elijah in the last days, and I noted that
the signs the witnesses are able to perform mirror exactly the ones performed by Moses and Elijah. There is no warning in the Bible that the two witnesses might be from Satan and all the evidence points to
them being those two prophets,with Moses representing the
Law, and Elijah representing the Prophets (yet more evidence that Old Testament salvation is back in effect

There is just no precedent in the bible of patriarchs/prophets returning to earth to complete some redemption-based mission. The mention in Malachi doesn't mean they will literally return. 4:6-He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers. Christ's forerunner: John the Baptist's mission was described by Angel Gabriel using the exact same words (Luke 1:17). The catch was, he would do that "in spirit and power of Elijah". So it would stand to reason that a group of people ( or a person) will go on in the spirit and power of Elijah at the end of days "to make ready a people prepared for the Lord". Even Christ testified to this [Matt 11:13-15, Matt 17:11-13) yet the real Elijah showed up at the transfiguration.] John cried out: produce fruit in keeping with repentance (Luke 3:8-9). Elijah did the same during the days of Ahab when the country was gripped by Baal worship (1 Kings 16:30-34).
Do you know how
we can lose our salvation when as Christians, we are in Christ, and he is in us, and he says that no one can take us from his hand? That seems pretty secure to me? Why doesn't it to you?

Since Christ died for all mankind and there's a billion+ christians, which would mean we are all secure in Christ, right? Then why are so few travelling the narrow road (Matt 7:14). Hopefully the next verses (21-23) will help aswell.
Not convincing. My ancestors
were burned at the stake by the Catholic church and Dyer calls my scriptural beliefs, which predate the Catholic church's perverted doctrine by hundreds of years, moronic gobbledygook. Do you think the argument I've made over this thread is moronic gobbledygook?

Ofcourse not! I love Dyer and he knows he is good. As such, he is a proud ass, i've read his work for years so i know. So please overlook the offense, on my behalf. Thanks in advance. I actually read your reply here first. So we will continue the rapture/armageddon talk over at VC.
Regarding Washington's article, he has every right to believe in post-trib rapture as much as you have the right to believe in pre-trib. But we cannot deny that warhawks have co-opted evangelical beliefs to legitimize their diabolical plans and have brought evangelical leaders on board (Rick Warren of Purpose-driven life books is a CFR member) to help sell their 'think-tank white papers' as prophecy to the population. Just because millions around the world (as you said) subscribe to that view doesn't make it the right one. Thanks alot for the conversation (not that its ending) and i learn alot from this kind of discourse. God bless.
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Re: Armageddon!

PostTue Apr 04, 2017 4:32 am

Karlysymon wrote:Hi Thunderian

Thunderian wrote:The order of events in
Revelation 14 seem to suggest that the 144,000 are in Heaven before the end of the Tribulation. I am not dogmatic about this, and i don't think it makes a difference overall. It's
just my personal belief and I
can't prove it. From scripture, it does look like the two
witnesses perform their
ministry in the last half of the Tribulation, and it does look like the 144,000 are sealed at the beginning of it, so that's where that thinking comes from on my part.

It can't just be your personal belief. This is what sets people up for disappointment. Your beliefs need to backed-up by scripture. Christ demonstrated this to the 2 disciples on the road to Emmaus (Luke 24:25-27).


It's not like I am basing my entire view of the Rapture on this one guess. The timing of the two witnesses and the 144,000 makes zero difference overall, so I think a guess is fine. Everything else I believe in relation to the Rapture is based 100% on the Bible.

You think everyone
who was ever a believer is in
the Church, and I don't know
how they can be in the Church when it wasn't around until after Christ ascended.
1 Corinthians 10:11-12 is not
about losing salvation, but
about resisting temptation.
Hebrews is written for believing Jews during the Tribulation, Revelation 3:15-19 is about an unbelieving church, in Luke13:5-9 Jesus is speaking to Jews before his crucifixion, when you
could still lose your salvation,
Psalms 32 is about salvation during the Tribulation, Isaiah
55:6 is for believers now, and
tells us to get saved now, while we still can, and Deuteronomy 29 is to Israel in the Old Testament when they could lose their temptation.


You just contradicted yourself here. Somehow, the Psalmist and Isaiah's statements were directed at the church which wouldn't be in existence until after several centuries. Isaiah wasn't even prophesying in those verses. So i don't know why you would say that.


Do you believe the Old Testament has prophecies about Jesus and references that had meaning at the time he was here? Then why can't believers in future ages have messages that are for them? Isn't that the very definition of prophecy? Messages for believers about future events?

not to mention
the angels flying over the earth and shouting the message of salvation to the world. It'll be hard to avoid seeing that, and you won't need to rely on faith
because the evidence of God will be impossible to ignore.

you mean we are to witness angels literally flying in the sky shouting the message of salvation?


We won't, but those on earth during the Tribulation will.

Revelation 14:

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.


God said in Malachi he would send Elijah in the last days, and I noted that
the signs the witnesses are able to perform mirror exactly the ones performed by Moses and Elijah. There is no warning in the Bible that the two witnesses might be from Satan and all the evidence points to
them being those two prophets,with Moses representing the
Law, and Elijah representing the Prophets (yet more evidence that Old Testament salvation is back in effect

There is just no precedent in the bible of patriarchs/prophets returning to earth to complete some redemption-based mission. The mention in Malachi doesn't mean they will literally return. 4:6-He will turn the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers. Christ's forerunner: John the Baptist's mission was described by Angel Gabriel using the exact same words (Luke 1:17). The catch was, he would do that "in spirit and power of Elijah". So it would stand to reason that a group of people ( or a person) will go on in the spirit and power of Elijah at the end of days "to make ready a people prepared for the Lord". Even Christ testified to this [Matt 11:13-15, Matt 17:11-13) yet the real Elijah showed up at the transfiguration.] John cried out: produce fruit in keeping with repentance (Luke 3:8-9). Elijah did the same during the days of Ahab when the country was gripped by Baal worship (1 Kings 16:30-34).



God doesn't say he is going to send the spirit of Elijah, he says, Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet.

I don't know of any reason to take that as anything other than literally.

Do you know how
we can lose our salvation when as Christians, we are in Christ, and he is in us, and he says that no one can take us from his hand? That seems pretty secure to me? Why doesn't it to you?

Since Christ died for all mankind and there's a billion+ christians, which would mean we are all secure in Christ, right? Then why are so few travelling the narrow road (Matt 7:14). Hopefully the next verses (21-23) will help aswell.


Christianity is the narrow way. Do you read that verse as applying to believers only? And when Christ says he never knew someone, it means he never knew them. They were never saved. These verses have nothing at all to do with losing salvation.

Not convincing. My ancestors
were burned at the stake by the Catholic church and Dyer calls my scriptural beliefs, which predate the Catholic church's perverted doctrine by hundreds of years, moronic gobbledygook. Do you think the argument I've made over this thread is moronic gobbledygook?

Ofcourse not! I love Dyer and he knows he is good. As such, he is a proud ass, i've read his work for years so i know. So please overlook the offense, on my behalf. Thanks in advance. I actually read your reply here first. So we will continue the rapture/armageddon talk over at VC.


I actually prefer it over here. Lots of distractions (and jerks) on the VC board, and this has been very pleasant. :smile:

Regarding Washington's article, he has every right to believe in post-trib rapture as much as you have the right to believe in pre-trib.


Certainly he does, but his characterization of my beliefs and the beliefs of millions of Christians is false. I am not attacking his view of the Rapture, I am taking exception to the lies he's telling about mine.

But we cannot deny that warhawks have co-opted evangelical beliefs to legitimize their diabolical plans and have brought evangelical leaders on board (Rick Warren of Purpose-driven life books is a CFR member) to help sell their 'think-tank white papers' as prophecy to the population.


Evil men have been co-opting people's faith since people have had faith, and everyone who goes to war swears that God is on their side. Johnny Cash sang about it. And, I wear it for the thousands who have died, Believen' that the Lord was on their side,

Their false beliefs don't make my BIble-based ones any less valid, and I have already told you I don't support the kind of military action we've seen from Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney and those guys.

Just because millions around the world (as you said) subscribe to that view doesn't make it the right one.


My point was that the pre-Trib view of the Rapture is not an American evangelical Zionist phenomenon. It's as ancient as the early days of the Church, and is believed by Christians all over the world.

Thanks alot for the conversation (not that its ending) and i learn alot from this kind of discourse. God bless.


Amen and God bless you, too!
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Karlysymon

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Re: Armageddon!

PostWed Apr 05, 2017 11:53 am

Thunderian wrote:It's not like I am basing my
entire view of the Rapture on
this one guess. The timing of
the two witnesses and the 144,000 makes zero difference overall, so I think a guess is fine. Everything else I believe in relation to the Rapture is based
100% on the Bible.

Okay. Time will tell and when these events begin playing out, iam sure we will both remember this conversation. I want draw your attention to the sealing of the 144,000. If they are going to be raptured mid-tribulation, why are they sealed? A seal and mark are in essence the same thing, used to distinguish between 2/ more things. When the bowls are poured out (Rev 16), it clearly states they only fall on those with the mark of the beast. Actually let's even go further back in time to show that the church will be here when the bowls are poured out. The plagues of Egypt. When they fell, the Israelites were protected in Goshen (Exodus 9:6-7, 25-26; 10:21-23, 11:13,23 ). You know, God could have whisked them away, afterall they were supposed to leave anyway. But the land was destroyed while they were still in it. Some Egyptians did believe (exod 9:20) and left with the Israelites and thus became Israelites. If that wasn't the case, then where did these aliens come from (Numb 11:4-6, Deut 31:10-13, Josh 8:30-35 )? Anyway, Ezekiel chapters 7-9 are mirrored elsewhere in regard to the endtimes. Ezek 9 is like word for word Rev 7:1-4. God's people, who grieve and lament over sin are marked/sealed before destruction. If they weren't going to be around during the destruction, why would God bother with the excercise? Just like in Ezekiel, Peter writes: judgement begins at the house of God (1 Peter 4:17-18). The angels who hold back the four winds of heaven mirror the guards of Jerusalem. Ezek 7:17-20=Isa 2:17-21, Lamentations 4:1, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Isa 24:11.
The word becomes scarce: Ezek 7:25-26=Amos 8:11-12 (I forgot to include Ezekiel in my response to GB)
Do you believe the Old
Testament has prophecies about Jesus and references that had meaning at the time he was here? Then why can't believers in future ages have messages that are for them? Isn't that the
very definition of prophecy?
Messages for believers about
future events?

Ofcourse i do. I just found it so contradictory that you would take those 2 verses as meant for the church. Given that, to you the church wasn't around and they aren't prophetic in anyway.
God doesn't say he is going to
send the spirit of Elijah, he says,
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet.
I don't know of any reason to
take that as anything other than literally.

Then help me out here, because what i see is as clear as day and its as though you do not want to see it for what it is. Angel Gabriel, who stands in the presence of God (Luke 1:19) tells Zechariah that his son would go on before the Lord in the spirit and power of Elijah (vs 17). Then after the transfiguration, the disciples ask the same thing we are asking here: why do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first? Meaning Malachi 4. Jesus, in two different accounts says John the Baptist was the Elijah who was to come. Iam sure after they saw Elijah with Christ, they probably thought the way you do that he would come back to carry out some mission. According to Christ, John was that promised Elijah, so even at the end of the age, we should expect another Elijah, not the one who ascended in flaming chariots. Christ clearly clarified that. Matt 11:13-15 and 17:11-13. How aren't His answers any clearer to you?
For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 And IF YOU ARE WILLING TO ACCEPT IT, he is Elijah who is to come. 15 He who has ears to hear, let him hear!
And His disciples asked Him, saying, “Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?” 11 Jesus answered and said to them, “Indeed, Elijah is coming
f irst[b] and will restore all things. 12 But I say to you that Elijah has come already, and they did not know him but did to him whatever they wished.
Likewise the Son of Man is also about to suffer at their hands.” 13 Then the disciples understood that He spoke to
them of John the Baptist.

I on the other hand don't believe people will see an angel literally flying in the sky with the everlasting gospel just as we can't see the angel who bears the seal of God literally sealing the saints. (Rev 7:2)
Thunderian wrote:Christianity is the narrow way.
Do you read that verse as
applying to believers only? And when Christ says he never knew someone, it means he never knew them. They were never saved. These verses have nothing at all to do with losing salvation.

I concede. I will say that everyone who will perish, Chirist bought salvation for them but they rejected it.
I actually prefer it over here.
Lots of distractions (and jerks)
on the VC board, and this has
been very pleasant.

Thanks. And on second thought, its best to keep it here. The convo will get swamped with a million other comments and frankly i don't have the time to reply to every other comment.
Evil men have been co-opting
people's faith since people have had faith, and everyone who goes to war swears that God is on their side. Johnny Cash sang about it. And, I wear it for the thousands who have died,
Believen' that the Lord was on their side,
Their false beliefs don't make
my BIble-based ones any less
valid, and I have already told you I don't support the kind of military action we've seen from Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney and those guys.

It is good to know that you do not support religious warfare. Washington stated that it makes some christians callous: afterall, war in M.E is God-willed. There is a thread here, somewhere, about a poll done and people were willing to go on a crusade, in the vein of 1095 a.d. How some can 'christians' be so indifferent to human life, ignorant of the fact that bloodshed pollutes the land (Numb 35:33).
Hope this finds you well.
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Karlysymon

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Re: Armageddon!

PostWed Apr 05, 2017 5:16 pm

I hope this commentary on the 144000 interests you as much as i found it so.

This number is first mentioned
in Revelation 7, and the circumstances under which they
are brought to view furnish a
very clear indication, in a
general way, to the correct
application. They are a certain
class who are sealed out of the twelve tribes of the children of
Israel; and they are sealed at a
certain time, when “the four
winds” are about to blow upon
the earth, to the hurt, or
desolation, of the earth and the sea (verses 2, 3); and the
blowing of the winds is
restrained till this number,
which the angel calls “the
servants of our God,” are sealed. It will hardly be called in
question that the “four winds”
of which this prophecy speaks,
are the same as “the great
whirlwind” prophesied of in Jeremiah 25:32, 33, and that the same scene is brought to view
in both these passages of
scripture. Jeremiah says: “Thus
saith the Lord of Hosts, Behold
evil shall go forth from nation to
nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the the
coasts of the earth. And the slain
of the Lord shall be at that day
from one end of the earth, even
unto the other end of the earth:
they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried:
they shall be dung upon the
ground.”This scene is certainly future; for
nothing like it has ever yet
occurred since the prophecy of
Jeremiah was written; and no
such scene will be witnessed till
this earth’s final time of trouble shall come. [Daniel 12:1]. Now if the blowing of the four winds
of Revelation 7:1 is the same scene (and what would four
winds blowing from “the four
corners of the earth” produce
but “a great whirlwind”?), then
the scene of Revelation 7:1-8 applies in the last days, and is a
work preparatory to the closing
up of all earthly scenes. The
144,000 must therefore be
found in the last generation of
“the servants of our God” on the earth; and the sealing of them
must be the last special religious
movement among men. It is the
closing Christian movement of
the Christian age. But the thought with some will
at once arise, that this can't
be, because the sealed ones are
from “all the tribes of the
children of Israel” and as those
tribes do not now exist, this prophecy must apply to some
time in the past when the
genealogy of the tribes was
kept, and the distinction was
preserved. So far as this, may
appear as an objection to the view above stated, it is easily
removed by another thought, -
that though men have no
distinctive record of the tribes,
God may have such a record,
and that is sufficient. Hebrews 12:23. And the objection is still further barred out by the fact
that the people of “Israel” are
not confined to the descendants
of Abraham after the flesh, but
that true Israelites are Jews
inwardly (Romans 2:29); not “children of the flesh,” but
“children of the
promise” (Romans 9:6-8); wild scions grafted into the good
olive-tree and partaking of its
nature (Romans 11:17, 24); members from the Gentiles, of
the “commonwealth of Israel.” Ephesians 2:12, 19. And all this pertains to Christians, who are
in consequence of their relation
to Christ, “Abraham’s seed, and
heirs according to the promise.” Galatians 3:29. Hence James, addressing Christians at the
time - when “the coming of the
Lord draweth nigh” (the very
time to which Revelation 7:1-8 applies), greets them as “the
twelve tribes which are
scattered abroad.” And the New
Testament city, the New
Jerusalem, whose builder and
maker is God, which bears on its foundation jewels the names of
the twelve apostles, shows on
its twelve gates, through which
the whole host of the redeemed
are to pass in and out through
all eternity, the names of the twelve tribes of the children of
Israel. The 144,000 may
therefore be made up from the
last generation of Christians,
and yet be drawn from the
twelve tribes of the children of Israel. The sealing implies protection
and salvation. It is a work of the
gospel through which all who
effectively share in it will secure
everlasting life. The threatened
condition that is restrained in order that the sealing work may
be accomplished is such that
when it takes effect, no further
work of the gospel can be
accomplished; hence, with the
sealing of the 144,000, Christ's intercession for man in heaven ends; the winds of
destruction blow from every
quarter, and the great
whirlwind of God’s indignation,
His last testimony in this mortal
state against sin, will sweep the world into its final aspect of
ruin and desolation. The number, 144,000, must
mean a definite number,
composed of just so many
individuals. It cannot stand for a
larger but indefinite number, for
in verse 9 another company is introduced which is indefinite in
its proportions, and hence is
spoken of as “a great multitude,
which no man could number.” If
the 144,000 were designed to
represent such an indefinite number, then John would have
said, in verse 4, “And there were sealed a great multitude, which
no man could number, out of all
the tribes of the children of
Israel.” But instead of this, he
says, 144,000, twelve thousand
from each tribe a number, which can be easily
enumerated. The reason for this
distinction is apparent if we
take the innumerable multitude
of verse 9 to be the whole host of the redeemed, who will have
part in the first resurrection,
and the 144,000 to be Christians
who will be alive on the earth
when Christ appears. And that
the 144,000 are the ones who will be thus alive, and meet
Christ at His second coming,
appears from the prophecy
where they are next
mentioned; that is, Revelation 14:1-5. Here they are represented as coming
triumphant out of the last
religious conflict in this world
(Revelation 13:12-18), and as being “redeemed from the
earth,” and “redeemed from
among men.” Revelation 14:3, 4. Will there, then, be only 144,000
saved from among the living
when the Lord appears? May
not this number be so far
representative as to include
many others? There seems to be quite a plausible supposition
that this latter may be the case;
that is, that the 144,000 may
include only the adult males
while the women and children associated
in the same movement would
be so many additional ones to
be saved from among the living
in that day. The plausibility of
this idea lies in the fact that the Hebrews were so numbered
when delivered from Egyptian
bondage which was a figure of
the deliverance of the remnant
of the true Israel from the Egypt
of this world at the coming of the Lord. Some three millions, in
all, came out of Egypt, yet there
were numbered only those who
were able to go forth to war,
from twenty years old and
upward, amounting in all to 603,550. Numbers 1:2, 3, 46. This would be about one to five
of the whole multitude, as is
computed, where the number of fighting men is given
as only about 600,00. If the
enumeration of Revelation 7:4 is founded on the same basis (of
which, of course, there is no
positive proof), it would give
the number to be translated
probably over seven hundred
thousand, instead of only one hundred and forty-four
thousand. It would indeed be
most gratifying to think that so
many would be ready for the
Lord’s appearing; but looking
over the condition of the world, and marking the rapid religious
decline of these days, the
wonder is where so many as
144,000 will ever be found who
will be ready for the Lord when
He shall appear.

As for so few to be found waiting for Christ, He asked: when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth? (Luke 18:8)
I thought the use of the Israelite numbering was interesting because the stories about Jesus feeding the 5000 and 4000, that number didn't include women and children who were also fed. (Matt 14:21 Mark 8:9). So the total could have been double or triple (huge miracle i'd have to say!)
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