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Going against the conspiracy grain

From discussing the nature of the control system to space phenomena, theorize away.
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Karlysymon

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Re: Going against the conspiracy grain

PostWed Feb 15, 2017 10:15 pm

Taragaia wrote:
Karlysymon wrote:What do you mean He doesn't accept us to use it? You are an intelligent being. I already answered this question in my conversation with Loki at GB's thread on page 7. So will copy and paste.


If we use it, and do not follow the Bible because of our choice, we burn in hell forever. I don't call that acceptance.


Karlysymon wrote:Intelligence and freewill guarantee the possibility of rebellion. It didn't have to be Lucifer to sin first. It could have been any one else.


Yeah,they do. Now why would God then be upset that the expected result came?

Karlysymon wrote:3) Create intelligent beings and run the risk of rejection/rebellion.


Yes. And presumably He did that. Why would He need us to obey Him? Why would He have to care whether we rebelled? I mean it's all fine and dandy until those Bible verses about eternal torment come along that tell us that if we don't do as He says in the Bible we're going to be screaming forever in burning brimstone.

That would maybe be OK if God didn't know what was going to happen, but He did know. So why is He that cruel?



First off, i have to say that people claim that the bible says this and that. Things that aren't true. The doctrine of people screaming in hell is biblically and logically unsound. Even the verses you quoted below are so clear on the matter. The fate of the wicked will be as that of Sodom and Gomorrah. They were consumed and no longer stand today. More recent examples are Pompeii destroyed when Vesuvius erupted in 79a.d and Krakatoa.
God gave us freewill and our bad choices grieve him. Just like you would hurt when your adult child makes choices that you are aware of as being only trouble. But you cannot do a thing about it because s/he is an adult and has the right to do as they see fit.
God knew all that was going to happen. The question remains: do you want intelligence and freewill or do you want to be a robot? I don't want to be an automaton. Don't know about you.......

C.S Lewis wrote:“There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, “Thy will be done,” and those to whom God says, in the end, “Thy will be done.” All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell.

Everyone who will perish, God will merely have answered their cry for independence. Any creation's independence means death. We are all dependent on God for existance. If He pulls the plug, its game over since we cannot self create or be self existent. Everyone who doesn't want to depend on God/wants to exist apart from God is crying out for death.
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Re: Going against the conspiracy grain

PostThu Feb 16, 2017 9:09 am

Taragaia wrote:
Rainerann wrote:
Rainerann wrote:
Although, it would also seem logical that someone who was stubborn might miss or refuse this sort of opportunity. Although, stubbornness is not usually an admirable trait according to most cultures. What should a person who is stubborn do according to what you believe? Should they be rewarded?


Depending on what they did in life, yes. A stubborn person who doesn't convert but has for example helped hundreds of people in their life for no benefit of their own and didn't harm anyone on purpose? Why should they be denied a reward because they didn't believe in Christ? That really makes no sense to me at all.


So then you suggesting that people should be saved by their works? So what should a man who spent his life using drugs and stealing from people do when he approaches death? It doesn't seem like he would have any works to save him. However, he can be saved by accepting the resurrection of Christ. Is it all that unfair to expect a righteous person to be capable of doing the same as the sinner?

Clearly, if it is so easy for a sinner to be accepted by God, why would there need to be two standards. Why isn't what is good for the sinner also good enough for the saint. Especially, if it is an instantaneous thing that doesn't require one fast, one tithe, one charitable act to be saved. It is so simple, how could it ever be called cruel?

So there are a couple problems that are created when we depend on works to save us that salvation by grace avoids.

In addition to this, the world clearly bases what is good and bad according to a merit system. Why should God behave in the same way as a man?
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Taragaia

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Re: Going against the conspiracy grain

PostThu Feb 16, 2017 4:50 pm

Karlysymon wrote:First off, i have to say that people claim that the bible says this and that. Things that aren't true. The doctrine of people screaming in hell is biblically and logically unsound. Even the verses you quoted below are so clear on the matter. The fate of the wicked will be as that of Sodom and Gomorrah. They were consumed and no longer stand today.


Ok, that is what your brand of Christianity says then. There are plenty out there that say this should be interpreted as a literal eternal fire. How am I to make the distiction?

Karlysymon wrote:God knew all that was going to happen. The question remains: do you want intelligence and freewill or do you want to be a robot? I don't want to be an automaton. Don't know about you.......


So it's forever punishment or being a robot?

Yeah that kind of sums it up in my head indeed. God wants us all to do as He says, and gives us a grain of sand in time on earth to do that, and if we somehow don't obey (or never hear the gospel) we will just vanish off the earth forever/or burn in an eternal fire because He was displeased. Tell me how that is freedom again?

In my eyes you aren't free at all, you're following a dictator who threatens to punish you forever if you don't do as he says while you didn't ask to be born in His country.

Karlysymon wrote:
C.S Lewis wrote:“There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, “Thy will be done,” and those to whom God says, in the end, “Thy will be done.” All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell.

Everyone who will perish, God will merely have answered their cry for independence. Any creation's independence means death. We are all dependent on God for existance. If He pulls the plug, its game over since we cannot self create or be self existent. Everyone who doesn't want to depend on God/wants to exist apart from God is crying out for death.


Well, I don't exist without God. In fact, I pray to Him every day and live a life filled with wonders thanks to Him. But He is nothing like anything found in the Abrahamic books, yet by not following them I am still crying out for death because I am not with God because I don't believe Jesus died for me??

Makes no sense at all to me. Sorry, we're just going round in a circle. Thanks for having the courtesy to answer though :Thumbup:
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Re: Going against the conspiracy grain

PostThu Feb 16, 2017 9:55 pm

Interesting thread. I think if you look at the history of conspiracy theories/theorist you will find that the prophecies of the Abrahamic faith are often intertwined into these conspiracies. It's almost an attempt to monopolize the narrative which interestingly enough differs vastly amongst Christians and Muslims. I also find this to be a factor for why these theories get labelled as conspiracies; instead of discussing facts there is more of a reliance on the supernatural to justify these theories. Hence why they sometimes do not get taken seriously by academics.

However, personally I feel the bigger conspiracy is the monopoly that the Abrahamic faith has taken on the philosophical discourse regarding God. Most of the thoughts, ideas, and beliefs that have been ingrained in society concerning God have it's root in the understanding of God that is unique to the Abrahamic religion. Most philosophers that have tackled the topic have done so in the confines of the ideas and values of these religions.

I find the thoughts of some of the surface/base understandings of the divine within these religions to be illogical and failed attempts at human projections to an infallible being. If you think about life and why we live as humans it is generally to be Happy; is that not everyone's purpose in life? Of course I'm not talking about a subjective state of mind but this state of bliss that can only be actualized and appreciated at death through self-reflection. Happiness, as Aristotle would say, is attained through cultivating virtue and ingraining it within yourself. The only way to this happiness is through the use of rationalization and our unique faculties of free thought.

Organized religions destroys the rational because it caters to the masses; it's a packaged solution pre-set for you to find comfort within. Adherents of religious institutions will say they are free thinkers; yet explain how that is so when you cannot see beyond the confines of the boundary of that institutions beliefs? There is a complicated problem there because you are constraining thought to the interpretations of a few men. Furthermore, in organized religion you see this propagation of core beliefs that are unchallenged; who came up with these core beliefs and why can they not be challenged?

The idea of anthropomorphism clearly shows this; religious philosophers have tackled this topic and I find my thoughts align more with those that discuss the divine through the use of negative theology. That's because I cannot accept that a infinite being would have finite qualities; in fact I feel its acceptance shows more how we are a narcissistic society, as we feel that we can attribute to something beyond our understanding things like our physical attributes, personal emotions, judgments and actions.
"Any dictator would admire the uniformity and obedience of the U.S. media."- Noam Chomsky
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Re: Going against the conspiracy grain

PostThu Feb 16, 2017 10:02 pm

hermes wrote:Interesting thread. I think if you look at the history of conspiracy theories/theorist you will find that the prophecies of the Abrahamic faith are often intertwined into these conspiracies. It's almost an attempt to monopolize the narrative which interestingly enough differs vastly amongst Christians and Muslims. I also find this to be a factor for why these theories get labelled as conspiracies; instead of discussing facts there is more of a reliance on the supernatural to justify these theories. Hence why they sometimes do not get taken seriously by academics.

However, personally I feel the bigger conspiracy is the monopoly that the Abrahamic faith has taken on the philosophical discourse regarding God. Most of the thoughts, ideas, and beliefs that have been ingrained in society concerning God have it's root in the understanding of God that is unique to the Abrahamic religion. Most philosophers that have tackled the topic have done so in the confines of the ideas and values of these religions.

I find the thoughts of some of the surface/base understandings of the divine within these religions to be illogical and failed attempts at human projections to an infallible being. If you think about life and why we live as humans it is generally to be Happy; is that not everyone's purpose in life? Of course I'm not talking about a subjective state of mind but this state of bliss that can only be actualized and appreciated at death through self-reflection. Happiness, as Aristotle would say, is attained through cultivating virtue and ingraining it within yourself. The only way to this happiness is through the use of rationalization and our unique faculties of free thought.

Organized religions destroys the rational because it caters to the masses; it's a packaged solution pre-set for you to find comfort within. Adherents of religious institutions will say they are free thinkers; yet explain how that is so when you cannot see beyond the confines of the boundary of that institutions beliefs? There is a complicated problem there because you are constraining thought to the interpretations of a few men. Furthermore, in organized religion you see this propagation of core beliefs that are unchallenged; who came up with these core beliefs and why can they not be challenged?

The idea of anthropomorphism clearly shows this; religious philosophers have tackled this topic and I find my thoughts align more with those that discuss the divine through the use of negative theology. That's because I cannot accept that a infinite being would have finite qualities; in fact I feel its acceptance shows more how we are a narcissistic society, as we feel that we can attribute to something beyond our understanding things like our physical attributes, personal emotions, judgments and actions.


Damn Hermes, I missed having you around. You took a lot of what I've been saying, or trying to say, and made it sound infinitely more intelligent, almost poetic haha. I'm a simple man, so I don't mind sounding like an idiot half of the time, as long as I hopefully get my point across, but I always look forward to reading your posts which are well thought out, concise, and inspiring. :clap: :Worship:
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Re: Going against the conspiracy grain

PostFri Feb 17, 2017 1:33 am

Taragaia wrote:I believe God exists, I just believe He works differently than the Abrahamic systems do. I am a Buddhist and believe in Karma. I do believe that the guy waltzing off after killing me (hypothetically) will get his due. Maybe not in this life, but in the next. Or some other time.

The difference between our beliefs is that I believe that God is ultimately merciful for everyone, which means that even though the killer will be punished, he will receive the exact same punishment (being killed) and have a thousand lives to change his ways and eventually enter heaven.

Instead of getting one chance (this life) and then being tormented forever if only for not believing in God.


I actually loved buddhism when I looked into it besides the no God part (not for me). I know there are sects with the belief, but thats kinda what got me off of it personally. Anyways, I personally believe in reincarnation and see evidence of people in the bible believing in it or at least treating it as a possibility too. As I said, if you separate the religions from the original text they all were based off of, you'll see there are differences from what the religions espouse and what the text itself espouses (along with similarities of course).

I know it is the same as what Albert Pike said, and I do think he might have a better understanding of the Bible because like you said before they have got the true sources of things. He is a satanist, I am not. I just think that the knowledge of good and evil is essential for us as human beings to learn and grow, and that the law of Karma is there as a corrective tool. But eventually we are all Gods beloved children and will return to Him.


I think the knowledge of good and evil is essential NOW, but it wasnt in the beginning. Im not sure why you would NEED to know about evil in a place with nothing but good like it was (allegedly) in the beginning. But I agree that now, we have to know good and evil, but I think the bible supports that same belief after Adam and Eve made their choice.

Albert Pike and the elite's take in general concerning the serpent, is what made get off gnosticism. Among other things...


Does not regret come after you made a mistake? But yes, the mistake part is my interpretation of the Genesis story.


I'd say usually, but not always if we go by the definition of regret.



Thanks for letting me know that :Smile:


No problem :thumbup:

Besides being raised christian and looking into all things concerning the bible, the biggest beliefs I held at one time or another were gnosticism and buddhism. I also looked into Islam a great deal.

Because of the law of Karma, as explained above. Everyone reaps what they sowed. There is even a hell realm to reincarnate to. But nothing is permanent because in the end God is loving and merciful and every soul has a unique journey towards HIm.


Well how come when God actively causes harm, you have a problem with it but when He allows it to happen, you dont? You say everyone reaps what they sowed so how is God giving people what they sowed in the bible bad?

Also even the bible says that everyone's spirit returns to that who gave it. Whats your opinion on that?

Reasons for what? I will gladly answer your question, I just can honestly not recall what exactly you wanted to know right now.

Thank you for your nice reply :Thumbup:


Reasons as to why you believe that who you're connecting with is God. I said I gave you my reasons, which I dont even see as subjective (i.e. you can research ancient Egypt and see if ancient Egyptians looked like modern Israel or look up how the elite pay homage to EVERY major civilization EXCEPT the Hebrews etc...), so I was wondering how you know or believe that what you're connecting to is God? Like what reasons do you have that make you sure or secure in your belief that you're connected or connecting with God and not some other entity? Not meant to be a shot or dig, just a question...

No problem, thank you as well :smile:
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Re: Going against the conspiracy grain

PostFri Feb 17, 2017 4:39 am

hermes wrote:Interesting thread.


Thank you, interesting reply too :Thumbup:

hermes wrote:However, personally I feel the bigger conspiracy is the monopoly that the Abrahamic faith has taken on the philosophical discourse regarding God. Most of the thoughts, ideas, and beliefs that have been ingrained in society concerning God have it's root in the understanding of God that is unique to the Abrahamic religion. Most philosophers that have tackled the topic have done so in the confines of the ideas and values of these religions.


Thank you, that's one of the points I have been trying to get across. America says it's a Christian nation first and foremost, even though church and state are officially separated people still swear an oath to God on several formal occasions. God is not gone from the scene at all. The same goes for Europe. It might be a Christian nation under the pope, but for those of us who are outsiders to Christianity, Catholicism is indeed a Christian church and a rather large and influencial one at that and it's presence can be felt everywhere in the West.

The most basic religions touched upon in religious education in schools are always Judaism, Christianity and Islam and then maybe some attention for Hinduism or Buddhism but I haven't seen much else come by. The dominant idea of God with most people is still a male figure in the clouds with a list of ten things He doesn't want you to do.

There are more people than ever turning away from that, that is true. They become atheists in large numbers. But atheism is something else entirely, and also useful for the Elite's agenda. Because both atheism and mass religious doctrine as presented in the way Abrahamic religions are taught today tell us that God doesn't exist/or that we are seperate from Him. Therefore the keys to the Inner Kingdom are sealed from those who do not do their own research. I believe that is the conspiracy.

hermes wrote: Happiness, as Aristotle would say, is attained through cultivating virtue and ingraining it within yourself. The only way to this happiness is through the use of rationalization and our unique faculties of free thought.


Indeed, free thought, free choice, free will, it is essential to be happy to be allowed to make your own choice and to be your unique self. To express the gifts you were given at birth. To no repress but to flourish. To grow the seed and make it bloom.

hermes wrote:Furthermore, in organized religion you see this propagation of core beliefs that are unchallenged; who came up with these core beliefs and why can they not be challenged?


Exactly. Why tell you that as a Christian the personal walk with the Lord is supposedly the most important part of faith, yet when the Lord gives you answers that don't match the Church's narrative it is suddenly Satan who whispers to you? It's a way of controlling people and dumbing them down. The institution rules them, not God. God sets people free, Institutions lock people away.

hermes wrote:That's because I cannot accept that a infinite being would have finite qualities; in fact I feel its acceptance shows more how we are a narcissistic society, as we feel that we can attribute to something beyond our understanding things like our physical attributes, personal emotions, judgments and actions.


Me neither.
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Re: Going against the conspiracy grain

PostFri Feb 17, 2017 5:22 am

KoncreteMind wrote:
I actually loved buddhism when I looked into it besides the no God part (not for me). I know there are sects with the belief, but thats kinda what got me off of it personally.


I understand that, most Buddhists indeed do not believe in a God. I am a bit of a dabbler in that sense that I do believe in God but Buddhism is still the best way to describe my spiritual practice.

KoncreteMind wrote:Anyways, I personally believe in reincarnation and see evidence of people in the bible believing in it or at least treating it as a possibility too. As I said, if you separate the religions from the original text they all were based off of, you'll see there are differences from what the religions espouse and what the text itself espouses (along with similarities of course).


Yes, I believe certain Gnostics believe in reincarnation? But it's not quite the regular way to interpret the Bible, and like you said closer to how the Elite seem to interpret it.

KoncreteMind wrote:Albert Pike and the elite's take in general concerning the serpent, is what made get off gnosticism. Among other things...


Do tell me more please? I've just gotten intrigued by Gnosticism through another thread that's currently running.

KoncreteMind wrote:Besides being raised christian and looking into all things concerning the bible, the biggest beliefs I held at one time or another were gnosticism and buddhism. I also looked into Islam a great deal.


Well that is interesting, you are ''just'' a Christian now right? Non affiliated? What brought you to this point?

KoncreteMind wrote:Well how come when God actively causes harm, you have a problem with it but when He allows it to happen, you dont? You say everyone reaps what they sowed so how is God giving people what they sowed in the bible bad?
Also even the bible says that everyone's spirit returns to that who gave it. Whats your opinion on that?


I think it's bad when God creates the wicked knowing they will never reach salvation and instead be punished forever for mistakes they made in their grain of sand of time that are completely irrelevant to the cosmos. This is what I take from the Bible.

I think it's fine if bad actions have consequences, but considering the scale and enormity of what ''eternity'' means, I think eternal punishment for a finite action in a finite life is unfair coming from an eternal being who knew you were going to commit said mistake anyway.

If we reap what we sow and get a chance to learn and grow from it, and then eventually return to God we have had an amazing journey and a beautiful existence. I believe we were created as fascets of God for Him to experience Himself, and therefore we're like a big scattered puzzle that one day will form a whole again.

KoncreteMind wrote:Reasons as to why you believe that who you're connecting with is God. I said I gave you my reasons, which I dont even see as subjective ([b]i.e. you can research ancient Egypt and see if ancient Egyptians looked like modern Israel or look up how the elite pay homage to EVERY major civilization EXCEPT the Hebrews etc...),[/b]


About that, I can really honestly not find out what you mean. I don't see modern Jews go around in white dresses with golden crowns but maybe I am looking wrong? I am really trying to figure this out, to you it seems obvious but I repeat that I can't find it.

But your reasons are bascially that what you believe in can be found in the works of other people? Ie research and facts (well what are facts anyway in a world run by corruption) and the bible as a source. So if enough others say it, it's true?

KoncreteMind wrote: so I was wondering how you know or believe that what you're connecting to is God? Like what reasons do you have that make you sure or secure in your belief that you're connected or connecting with God and not some other entity? Not meant to be a shot or dig, just a question...


Not taking it that way :Smile:

Anyway, I have never claimed that my experience isn't subjective. How do I know I connect to God?

Well, not because I have any scripture or group backing me up. Not even other Buddhists.

I just see evidence of me being ''heard'' so to speak in my daily life, I have experienced bliss so beyond words in prayer that I cried for hours in pure joy, I have had prayers answered almost instantly, my life seems to be one big domino effect of me talking to God and then specific things happening and coming on my path that I asked for. Like if I ask for a certain kind of clothes to come to me I will find them somewhere during the week. You could say coincidence once or twice, but these occurrences are a constant stream of things happening for me. It's hard to put into words, but when you're in the stream, you're in and you know it.
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Re: Going against the conspiracy grain

PostFri Feb 17, 2017 5:40 am

Rainerann wrote:
So then you suggesting that people should be saved by their works? So what should a man who spent his life using drugs and stealing from people do when he approaches death? It doesn't seem like he would have any works to save him. However, he can be saved by accepting the resurrection of Christ. Is it all that unfair to expect a righteous person to be capable of doing the same as the sinner?


No it is not, but I think it's quite strange to expect we have that all figured out in this short lifetime and get no second chances ever if we mis that one stop bus. Plenty of people who never heard of Christ either. So much for forgiveness and love from God the father as represented in the Bible.

It makes much more sense to me that someone gets punished for their actions, learns from it, moves on and eventually is received back into to the loving hands of God having overcome his or her trials.

Rainerann wrote:Clearly, if it is so easy for a sinner to be accepted by God, why would there need to be two standards. Why isn't what is good for the sinner also good enough for the saint. Especially, if it is an instantaneous thing that doesn't require one fast, one tithe, one charitable act to be saved. It is so simple, how could it ever be called cruel?


Because there's plenty of people who will never know about it. And because there are plenty of people who don't deserve eternal destruction just because they didn't believe in something. It's cruel to reject them on that reason.

Rainerann wrote:So there are a couple problems that are created when we depend on works to save us that salvation by grace avoids.
In addition to this, the world clearly bases what is good and bad according to a merit system. Why should God behave in the same way as a man?


I think I don't understand this question.

Sorry if my reply is very unsatisfying for you, I think we're on completely different tracks.
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Re: Going against the conspiracy grain

PostFri Feb 17, 2017 2:22 pm

Taragaia wrote:
Rainerann wrote:Clearly, if it is so easy for a sinner to be accepted by God, why would there need to be two standards. Why isn't what is good for the sinner also good enough for the saint. Especially, if it is an instantaneous thing that doesn't require one fast, one tithe, one charitable act to be saved. It is so simple, how could it ever be called cruel?


Because there's plenty of people who will never know about it. And because there are plenty of people who don't deserve eternal destruction just because they didn't believe in something. It's cruel to reject them on that reason.


Agreed. I don't mean this as a dig on Rainerann by any means, and maybe this isn'te ven what they were trying to say necessarily, but this is my least favorite form of argument for a Christian belief system: "It's so easy, why NOT do it?" It comes off as a sort of, "Hey, just say you believe in Christ to cover your ass, it's not hard at all!" As if, because the Bible doesn't really make sense to us or seem real it is our fault and we deserve potential eternal torment for not just putting aside our doubts and believing.
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"We all are to some extent [agnostic]... So yes, I'm an 'agnostic', in as much as I don't actually know what happens when I die. I choose to operate under the assumption that God does not exist. I have no need for God in my life, the concept of a 'God' feels incredibly made up to me. It is not requisite for my every day living. For some people it is. They are 'theistic agnostics,' I am an 'atheistic agnostic.'" - Cara Santa Maria
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