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Going against the conspiracy grain

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Rainerann

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Re: Going against the conspiracy grain

PostSun Feb 26, 2017 11:25 am

Well believing in the Bible is the endeavor to pursue truth. We are to seek truth and like I said before, the Bible is very transparent about the presence of corruption so I don't feel threatened by it. I also don't belong to a club where I have to cheer for my team even when they are losing. My faith in Christ is such that in moments like this, I can only see the good that would come by pursuing truth. I only see how many people might know freedom in Christ if there was more evidence. It would only help things become clearer if we used what is available to in the modern world to our advantage in this way.

Also, the main point of what I was saying was not that it didn't happen at all, its that some are suggesting it happened in a location that cannot be investigated. It cannot be ruled out that there isn't evidence of the exodus, there just isn't evidence of it in Egypt and I am not part of a cult that is forced to believe in something false that will only hurt my witness before others and prevent them from being healed by the Holy Spirit in the long run.

The authorized King James version, I call it the Bible of oppression because it was like putting a sock in our mouths as Christians. It was like the king said here is your Bible, now shut up so I can throw my party. King James was known for hiring poets and throwing parties. He also enjoyed writing. I am convinced his pen name was Shakespeare.

It was suggested by Malcolm X,and it is the best fit for the mystery of Shakespeare. King James is interesting history, but it is where the whole concept of the perfect Bible comes from. Before this there was a canon and completing a canon is different than saying that the Bible is perfected. It means that the writings in the canon were consistent and they are, even when you consider this possibility.

The canon was supposed to help steer our conclusions on a variety of subjects, or to be used for comparison. We were supposed to compare other writings to it, not presume that an English version from 1611 is a perfect translation. I don't believe there is such a thing as a perfect translation even if you read it in the original language. It is only meant to be a measure to compare other writings and in that function, i believe it does an exceptional job. With the many criticisms people make of Christianity, there are twice as many positive that came from Christianity. It is hard to deny that Christianity had an influence in establishing America with the freedoms we have had along with countless charities we have initiated. I don't think there is one religion that can compare to the charitable works that the church has provided. These are all things the Bible teaches.

It is really a profound accomplishment that the whole Bible was written over hundreds of years and is consistent throughout. I trust the Bible and the truth will not hurt me. It would only help continue to set me free. "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you." (Matthew 7:7). I believe there are still doors that need to be opened because all things have not been restored yet and until they are, there is still truth to be found like treasure hunters.

This might be a little jumpy, I'm on a tablet but I hope it makes some sense, but the point is we should not let pride get in the way of pursuing truth. If there is no evidence in Egypt, we should look somewhere else. That is the only way to truly witness our faith to others is with humility.
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Taragaia

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Re: Going against the conspiracy grain

PostSun Feb 26, 2017 12:57 pm

Rainerann wrote:Well believing in the Bible is the endeavor to pursue truth.


First of all, I really appreciate your effort in making well written responses even if we don't agree :Thumbup:

Second of all, (you saw this one coming) shouldn't the endeavor to pursue truth be free of preconceived notions and beliefs?

I wasn't born a Buddhist, I have touched upon every religion on this earth before Buddhism found me through experiences rather than my active effort as a seeker. I read as much of the Bible and Qu'ran as I could stand, visited churches and mosques, talked to muslims and christians. Went to Wiccan rituals, went to Hindu temples etc. It took me a long time to find what I consider MY truth (not the truth, because I believe there is no such thing) and it's still open to new idea's like the new input I am getting from GB.


Rainerann wrote: We are to seek truth and like I said before, the Bible is very transparent about the presence of corruption so I don't feel threatened by it.


I can understand your reasoning here. If everything is corrupted, the Bible can be too of course and unlike the Quran it doesn't promise it won't be corrupted. But how do you then know that it's still the Bible you have to look for in search for truth and nowhere else?

Rainerann wrote:I am not part of a cult that is forced to believe in something false that will only hurt my witness before others and prevent them from being healed by the Holy Spirit in the long run.


Cool, I like this independend side of yours :)

Rainerann wrote:It is hard to deny that Christianity had an influence in establishing America with the freedoms we have had along with countless charities we have initiated. I don't think there is one religion that can compare to the charitable works that the church has provided. These are all things the Bible teaches.


I actually agree here, as I have said America says it's a Christian nation first and foremost. It does not proclaim it is a Satanic nation. Which is why I gave my interpretation of events on the first page. The Church has also persecuted many through the ages who believed otherwise, though I agree right now that is not going on and that's a very good recent development happening in Christianity.

I do know the Bible teaches compassion, kindness and peace in many places. But there are also many places where it does not, and it just depends on who is reading it. That's what makes for a problem in my eyes. If it were God's word, why isn't it consistent?

Rainerann wrote:It is really a profound accomplishment that the whole Bible was written over hundreds of years and is consistent throughout.


I really don't get this bit. The new testament is a totally diferent book from the old testament. The old testament being in my eyes ''God is angry now OBEY'' and the second being ''God wants to save you all and go HUG each other''. How do you explain these contradictions?

Rainerann wrote: That is the only way to truly witness our faith to others is with humility.


I certainly respect and appreciate your civility :Smile:
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KoncreteMind

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Re: Going against the conspiracy grain

PostSun Feb 26, 2017 6:19 pm

Rainerann wrote:@ KoncreteMind

There is a lot of evidence that would be missing in trying to suggest that the only true Israelites were in Africa.
| Show Quote
For one, there is little evidence of Torah throughout Africa. Africa has been scoured by the western world and nowhere do you see anyone practicing the Sabbath. Even while, there is evidence that of Jews in the Iberian peninsula practicing the Sabbath in secret for hundreds of years. There is no record of the Sabbath taking place in Africa.

The second problem is that you would be assuming that they were under a curse this entire time. I find that difficult to believe. Nowhere does it say it would last forever. It was a conditional curse that would only be implemented if the people were disobedient. It could very easily be reversed if there were obedience, which would mean practicing Torah under the Old Covenant, and there is no record of practicing the Sabbath like I have already mentioned.

The third problem is that the Greek historian Herodotus never mentions Jews being present in Palestine. The fact that there is no evidence to place the Jews in Egypt or Palestine in ancient historical records is a problem. It is not something that can be swept aside. Egypt is known for archaeological study. The Western world has played a significant role in the excavation of the area.

There is nothing that suggests an exodus took place in Egypt and there is little evidence that the Jews resided in what we call Israel either according to ancient history. Herodotus referred to it as Palestine when he was writing his famous histories.

However, operation magic carpet ride forced thousands of Yemenite Jews to move to Palestine in 1949. Yemen has a long history of a large Jewish population for thousands of years and the red passes through a narrow gap between Ethiopia and Yemen. The people of Yemen know this history goes back thousands of years.

Image

Yemen has also not had the considerable archaeological attention that Egypt has had.

An article from Hareetz suggests that Saudi Arabia has evidence of early Jewish history and Christian history prior to establishing Islam in the area too.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/archaeolo ... m-1.709010

"Iraqi anthropologist and historian Fadel al-Rubai has produced a powerful body of work directly challenging Orientalist interpretations of Arab and Muslim history and local Arab think tanks."http://english.al-akhbar.com/node/1166

Unfortunately, much of this man's work is in Arabic, but what is available in English is still informative.

Egypt has been an open book to the world, but Saudi Arabia is on lockdown to any real investigation of the matter, and they are friends with Israel.

phpBB [video]


If the Biblical stories took place in Yemen, this would explain why Ethiopians are mentioned so many times in scripture. It would mean that the Jews were enslaved by another Arab tribe and they would look like Arabs. This would mean they would have similar features of the Sephardic Jews on the Iberian peninsula who also resemble Arabs.

I don't know if you have ever noticed that King Abdullah and Benjamin Netanyahu have some similar facial features. It bothers me a little to tell you the truth.

Image

Image

Look at their noses and the facial lines they have when they smile. I would love to be able to see King Abdullah's ears. I have a hunch they are big too.

Taragaia maybe I have found your conspiracy my friend. :) Something like this would change everything for all three Abrahamic religions if there was a way to study Biblical archaeology in southern Saudi Arabia and Yemen. We might all come to learn that we have been bamboozled by some ancient rabbis. This has already been my theory for some time.


I think I have to point out, again, that the absence of evidence isnt evidence of absence. Just because you havent seen evidence of something, doesnt mean it lacks existence or isnt true. It just means YOU or WE havent seen something YET. OR it could mean what you take it to mean, that it isnt true. But the first point to make is that just because we havent seen evidence of something, doesnt automatically mean that that something isnt true. From there, we go to the fact that there are Jews in Africa. In places like Ethiopia, Nigeria(Igbo), and South Africa (Lemba) there are African Jews and that in the surrounding cultures are HEBREW-like customs.

All one has to do is look at how the Egyptians depicted themselves. And not only them but the people around them. ESPECIALLY the Kushites/Ethiopians. They dont match in the slightest the people who are in the land today. Saudi Arabia gets WAY hotter than most places in Africa, yet Africa produces dark skinned people, and Saudi Arabia produces "Arabs" with straight hair? What exactly makes a person black vs white vs any other ethnicity if not for the enviroment they have lived in over some time? Ethiopia and Sudan are less than 100 miles away from Yemen, yet Ethiopia/Sudan produced dark skinned African looking people while less than 100 miles away were light skinned, straight haired Arabs? Again not buying it. The conundrum is all in how they depicted themselves. It doesnt match the people who are their today. Whats your opinion on that?

Concerning history, do you believe that those in power release EVERYTHING to you they know and find? History isnt an open book on this planet. They get the book, read through it, take some stuff out, leave stuff in, and distort it BEFORE releasing it to the general public's eyes. Im not saying this to point out that the exodus definitively happened, just pointing out that I doubt they're releasing everything they know historically happened to us. Meaning theres some historical occurrences that they keep under wraps. Do you believe this? Heck, do you believe that there is a conspiracy to hide truth from the general public? Some do, some dont. I definitely believe they hide things and distort others to mislead the general public away from that which those in power do not want the general public to have/know. Do you believe this as well?

To cap it all off, Im mainly focusing on the discrepancy between how Egyptians/Kushites/Ethiopians were depicted, and how the people who should look like them (Jews/Yemenites/Saudis etc...)look like today. Its a massive difference. If you want to focus on Africans in Africa and the Americas, then I'd ask that you read Deuteronomy 28 and explain to me why it says the things that are written there would be signs on the descendants of the Israelites. For people who dont believe the bible, this is irrelevant and maybe they could address the discrepancies between ancient Egyptians and modern Jews when they should look one in the same. For others that believe the bible? Not sure how you ignore the things Im saying but hey, it is what is. For me, I havent seen anyone explain these things away.
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KoncreteMind

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Re: Going against the conspiracy grain

PostSun Feb 26, 2017 6:39 pm

Rainerann wrote: If there is no evidence in Egypt, we should look somewhere else. That is the only way to truly witness our faith to others is with humility.


Theres many ways you can take this point though. You can take it as "there is absolutely no evidence therefore, it never happened", you could take it as "there is no evidence YET, so I believe nothing happened/ believe something happened until proven/shown otherwise", you could take it as "there is no evidence because they are hiding/not releasing the evidence", or you could take it as "absence of evidence isnt evidence of absence". You could even take it as like the US does today, the Egyptians not denoting losses they took in their history.

Choosing one over the other doesnt exude "humility" in any sense of the word. Imo of course

btw theres this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merneptah_Stele

Which shows that Israel and Egypt had SOME type of relationship with each other

The text is largely an account of Merneptah's victory over the Libyans and their allies, but the last 3 of the 28 lines deal with a separate campaign in Canaan, then part of Egypt's imperial possessions. The stele is sometimes referred to as the "Israel Stela" because a majority of scholars translate a set of hieroglyphs in line 27 as "Israel." Alternative translations have been advanced but are not widely accepted.[3]

If this consensus is assumed, the stela represents the earliest textual reference to Israel and the only reference from ancient Egypt.[4] It is one of four known inscriptions that mention and date to the time of ancient Israel, the others being the Mesha Stele, the Tel Dan Stele, and the Kurkh Monolith.[5][6][7] As a result, some consider the stele to be Flinders Petrie's most famous discovery,[8] an opinion with which Petrie himself concurred.
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Rainerann

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Re: Going against the conspiracy grain

PostSun Feb 26, 2017 9:28 pm

@Taragaia

As far as consistency of scripture goes, the Bible is a very long book. It is easy to see at first how people find it difficult to see the consistency because of this. It is very long and it would take most people at least a year to completely read through and memory is a funny thing. When they do studies of memory, if you were to read through something one time, you would remember very little of it at first that would help to see the context. By the time you got to the end, it might seem very different from the beginning. The only way to resolve this is to study it again like you would with any classical book that is usually much longer than a modern book. If I were to read War and Peace, it would be the same process, to understand the storyline would take much more effort and increased concentration. Even more so with a book that does not tell a linear storyline and is much more like an almanac or encyclopedia. It is like trying to find consistency in an encyclopedia.

So the short version would be that most people never point out why the Old Testament gives some of its judgements. The Bible does explain this, they are just not included many times when people are criticizing the Bible.

Psalm 94
The Just Judge

Lord, God of vengeance—
God of vengeance, appear.

2 Rise up, Judge of the earth;
repay the proud what they deserve.
3 Lord, how long will the wicked—
how long will the wicked gloat?
4 They pour out arrogant words;
all the evildoers boast.
5 Lord, they crush Your people;
they afflict Your heritage.

6 They kill the widow and the foreigner
and murder the fatherless.
7 They say, “The Lord doesn’t see it.
The God of Jacob doesn’t pay attention.”


"“This is what the Lord of Hosts, the God of Israel, says: Correct your ways and your deeds, and I will allow you to live in this place. Do not trust deceitful words, chanting: This is the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord. Instead, if you really change your ways and your actions, if you act justly toward one another, 6 if you no longer oppress the foreigner, the fatherless, and the widow and no longer shed innocent blood in this place or follow other gods, bringing harm on yourselves, I will allow you to live in this place, the land I gave to your ancestors long ago and forever. 8 But look, you keep trusting in deceitful words that cannot help." (Jeremiah 7:3-7).

Here we see consistency because we know Jesus did the things that God asked the people to do, which they ignored. So there is consistency in that what God asked the people to do, He found a way to accomplish through Jesus Christ. Therefore, the ministry of Christ centered around doing what the people ignored and because of the absence of the actions that take place in the New Testament, it might seem as though there was an inconsistency. Although, there is no inconsistency, there is just an absence of action.

Few people mention why people were judged in the Old Testament, but we know in Jeremiah that Judah was judged for child sacrifice. "They have built the high places of Topheth in the Valley of Hinnom in order to burn their sons and daughters in the fire, a thing I did not command; I never entertained the thought."


We learn that this offended God greatly and it not hard to see why they were judged accordingly. In any modern court, there would be a severe punishment for such behavior. These were not actions many people would show compassion towards.

So the Old Testament is very clear on why there was judgement. Sometimes, it is hard to piece it all together because it is long, but not inconsistent.

I believe studying spirituality is more like studying science as well. For example, Isaac Newton inspires me for the work that he did in mathematics as a man of faith. In his book Principia, he discusses the resistance he was receiving at the time for his contemplations of gravity. It is very interesting.

"I can hear some people disagreeing with this conclusion and muttering something or other about occult qualities. They are always prattling on and on to the effect that gravity is something occult, and that occult causes are to be banished completely from philosophy. But it is easy to answer them: occult causes are not those causes who existence is very clearly demonstrated by observations, but only those whose existence is occult, imagined, and not yet proved. Therefore, gravity is not an occult cause of celestial motions, since it has been shown from phenomena that this force really exists. Rather, occult causes are the refuge of those who assign the governing of these motions to some sort of vortices of a certain matter utterly fictitious and completely imperceptible to the senses." (Principia, Issac Newton).

In short, people who read the Bible can be just as superstitious as those who don't at times, but that doesn't define whether or not something is true or not. Truth can be tested like gravity because it is clearly demonstrated by observations.
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Rainerann

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Re: Going against the conspiracy grain

PostSun Feb 26, 2017 9:32 pm

@KoncreteMind

They have been doing archeological study in Egypt for a long time now. Egypt has been an open book. There are too many people who are freely able to study the area. Trying to censure all of them is like trying to find a needle in a haystack. It is not possible to censure every person who has come to Egypt trying to find archeological evidence of Biblical accounts. Someone would slip through and would have ended up being interviewed by Alex Jones or some other alternative media source at this point for covering up what they found.
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KoncreteMind

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Re: Going against the conspiracy grain

PostMon Feb 27, 2017 6:31 am

Rainerann wrote:@KoncreteMind

They have been doing archeological study in Egypt for a long time now. Egypt has been an open book. There are too many people who are freely able to study the area. Trying to censure all of them is like trying to find a needle in a haystack. It is not possible to censure every person who has come to Egypt trying to find archeological evidence of Biblical accounts. Someone would slip through and would have ended up being interviewed by Alex Jones or some other alternative media source at this point for covering up what they found.


If its an open book, that means me and you can go up there and excavate for more historical artifacts by our own will (assuming we had the money and know how to do so). Do you think we'd be allowed to freely go and excavate and search for artifacts by our own will? Or do you think we'd have to go through "official" and probably monitored channels to do so? Thats not an open book as I see it. As well, the Merneptah Stele mentions Israel, just as the Shasu of Yhw seems to be speaking of the Israelites too. Then theres the Apiru/Habiru which may also be speaking of them. Theres some things here and there but I guess its all on how you look at it. But if thats not the case, then the rest of the bible falls flat imo. It makes no sense if Moses didnt exist, that any other prophet, even Jesus, would exist. Theres no Jesus without Moses (biblically speaking) just as there is no Moses if there is no Abraham. And with Abraham, there is even less proof of his existence than Israel being in Egypt.

If your position is that the exodus happened elsewhere (namely Yemen/Saudi Arabia) then it still begs the question of how desert like conditions of Saudi Arabia/Yemen could produce "Arabs" but right across the water in cooler climates is an area producing dark skinned Africans. In all this seems to be a touchy subject..

I think its like you mentioned about the Saud's that I didnt really touch on. The Saud's in my opinion are zionists. Thats why they are allies with the US who are allies with Israel and as you mentioned, look like Jewish people (some of them do like arab though imo).. But as you also mentioned earlier, they control what gets leaked out when it comes to the history of the land they're in. I mean there is a mountain with a burnt top in Saudi Arabia (burning mountain that Moses saw maybe), as well as a rock that looks like it was split like Moses had done when the Israelites were thirsty for water. There obviously could be something there but since they're the ones controlling the flow of information there (just like there are those in Egypt) not everything gets released. I think thats a good example of what is possibly happening with certain things concerning Egypt
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Re: Going against the conspiracy grain

PostMon Feb 27, 2017 2:56 pm

The Saud's are donemh Jews.
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Taragaia

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Re: Going against the conspiracy grain

PostMon Feb 27, 2017 3:18 pm

Kung Fu wrote:The Saud's are donemh Jews.


Which people aren't Jews in your eyes?
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