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Freedom.

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Karlysymon

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Freedom.

PostWed Mar 01, 2017 10:25 pm

Some people think that
freedom consists of being able to do what you want, when you want, and how you want to do it. What's wrong with that concept from a Christian/Islamic/Agnostic/Pagan/Political/Social-cultural perspective?
Many people claim to have more freedom than others (e.g religious and non religious, married people with those co-habiting etc) and furthermore, we tend to equate freedom with a lack of rules and the presence of boundaries as slavery of some sort. Does true freedom inherently require rules and boundaries? If not, what is freedom without rules?

I found the above question somewhere, edited it abit and thought i would put it here for discussion.

"What is liberty without wisdom and without virtue? It is the greatest of all possible evils, for it is folly, vice, and madness, without restraint…” Edmund Burke
Last edited by Karlysymon on Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Freedom.

PostWed Mar 01, 2017 10:29 pm

I think I need you to elaborate right off the bat. It might be because I didn't sleep well and am about to go home for the day though, so elaborate if you want to and I'll check back in in the morning ;)

Good to see you around Karly!
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Karlysymon

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Re: Freedom.

PostWed Mar 01, 2017 10:57 pm

Thanks Loki. I will edit the OP later as you have requested but i gotta run, like NOW! Have a great evening!
Last edited by Karlysymon on Thu Mar 02, 2017 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Freedom.

PostThu Mar 02, 2017 5:53 am

Karlysymon wrote:Some people think that
freedom consists of
being able to do what
you want, when you
want, and how you want
to do it. What's wrong with that concept from a
Christian/Islamic/Agnostic/Pagan/Political/Social-cultural perspective?
Does freedom have limits then?
"What is liberty without wisdom and without virtue? It is the greatest of all possible evils, for it is folly, vice, and madness, without restraint…” Edmund Burke


I think everyone should be free to do as they want, as long as it does not harm others.

That is a simple rule with very complex implications when you really think about it :Wink:
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Re: Freedom.

PostThu Mar 02, 2017 1:30 pm

Taragaia wrote:
Karlysymon wrote:Some people think that
freedom consists of
being able to do what
you want, when you
want, and how you want
to do it. What's wrong with that concept from a
Christian/Islamic/Agnostic/Pagan/Political/Social-cultural perspective?
Does freedom have limits then?
"What is liberty without wisdom and without virtue? It is the greatest of all possible evils, for it is folly, vice, and madness, without restraint…” Edmund Burke


I think everyone should be free to do as they want, as long as it does not harm others.

That is a simple rule with very complex implications when you really think about it :Wink:


Honestly, true freedom would allow for harming others as you please. I don't think that true freedom is necessarily a good or bad thing -- it is neutral -- it would just come down to the people exercising it. With that in mind, I'm happy that we aren't truly free to do as we want, we must live by society's rules or be punished for breaking them. I find that to be fine. It becomes nuanced and very grey when you get into rules that don't prevent you from hurting anyone else that you don't agree with, such as the current laws on marijuana in the majority of the US. So long as I'm not hotboxing a waiting room or office or something and I'm just smoking a natural plant for my own pleasure I can't see how that could ever be unlawful; but it is. So that gets wonky.

Ultimately, I totally agree with your stance, that we should be free to do as we please so long as we aren't harming or overly inconveniencing others. CTs hate the wiccan quote, but personally I think it makes plenty of sense concerning freedom: "An it harm none, do what ye will"
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Re: Freedom.

PostThu Mar 02, 2017 6:16 pm

We've all heard the statement: it is my life iam free to do whatever i want! Next thing, we see his/her family in tears during an intervention, obviously hurt by the destructive behaviour. Iam going to call this 'indirect harm'-actions not directed at anyone but nevertheless reverberate beyond that one person. How free would said individual be had s/he acted otherwise?
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Re: Freedom.

PostThu Mar 02, 2017 6:35 pm

Karlysymon wrote:We've all heard the statement: it is my life iam free to do whatever i want! Next thing, we see his/her family in tears during an intervention, obviously hurt by the destructive behaviour. Iam going to call this 'indirect harm'-actions not directed at anyone but nevertheless reverberate beyond that one person. How free would said individual be had s/he acted otherwise?


Your questions so far are unclear to me haha. I don't know if that is my fault or yours, but I'll just try to speak to the topic of the freedom of self-harm.

Harming oneself is not what I would call wise or beneficial, however, it is also something I think a person should be allowed to decide for themselves. It is their life after all, and while it may upset me, I would imagine that if they are hurting themselves via cutting or shooting heroin into their veins then they are far more upset internally than I am. Who am I to tell them they can't do those things? If asked, I would encourage them not to and suggest healthy alternatives as well as therapy, but I don't feel it is my place to tell them they aren't allowed to do something that only hurts themselves.

This particular topic gets more muddled when you are talking about young people doing these things. For example, a thirteen year old girl who has begun cutting herself. That is her decision, and one she must live with, but should her parents be able to tell her she isn't allowed to do it? Yeah, I think it is within their freedom to tell her that, but can they enforce it? And if they do enforce it in some way, are they then taking away her freedom and is that okay because she supposedly doesn't know better yet? As a society we have decided to put an age restriction on booze and cigarettes (and probably weed in the near future) because these items harm your health and the idea, I believe, is to prohibit you from hurting yourself before you truly know better or have your shit figured out. On that note though, do 18 year olds really have their shit figured out? I didn't even if I thought I did. I probably still don't.

It's a very nuanced issue that we kind of have to tackle on an individual basis.

In the vein of freedom to self-harm though, I do have personal experience because my mother chose to take her own life when I was only around 9 years old. There is obviously a strong part of me that would have liked someone to squash her freedom and prevent her from doing that, but ultimately it was her choice and I just have to accept that. She shattered my dad for a long time I'm sure (being so young at the time it's hard to even recall what he was like or how long it took him to grieve and mourn), he was so devastated immediately after that he hardly even remembers the following weeks. Apparently my uncle stayed with us for a week or so to take care of my brother and I and my dad only just recently learned this because he had blocked that entire time out I guess. I don't remember it either. I'd love to say that she shouldn't have been allowed the freedom to make such a choice and no one should, but I didn't have to live in her brain and experience the angst and depression she experienced on a daily basis, enough pain that she felt the only way forward was to end her life and leave the people she loved the most, and in a suicidal person's mind they think they are doing us a favor because they will no longer burden us. To a rational mind that is insanity because we'd much rather have our mother/wife/daughter with us and help them to feel better and deal with their troubles than to lose them forever, but they just don't see it that way and they want the pain to stop. Of course, that is what mental health institutions are supposed to be for, to help one struggling with these issues to get better and to prevent them from harming themselves while they do, but unfortunately that isn't always how it works and often patients are mistreated, ignored, or drugged up so much that they don't know where they are.
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"We all are to some extent [agnostic]... So yes, I'm an 'agnostic', in as much as I don't actually know what happens when I die. I choose to operate under the assumption that God does not exist. I have no need for God in my life, the concept of a 'God' feels incredibly made up to me. It is not requisite for my every day living. For some people it is. They are 'theistic agnostics,' I am an 'atheistic agnostic.'" - Cara Santa Maria
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Re: Freedom.

PostThu Mar 02, 2017 6:36 pm

Loki wrote:
Honestly, true freedom would allow for harming others as you please.


That is true. I guess that doesn't really happen though, because even animals have a natural instinct that drives them to protect certain others and attack certain groups. So even in nature freedom has certain limits.

Loki wrote:Ultimately, I totally agree with your stance, that we should be free to do as we please so long as we aren't harming or overly inconveniencing others. CTs hate the wiccan quote, but personally I think it makes plenty of sense concerning freedom: "An it harm none, do what ye will"


Yes, I think that's a fine rule too. You can take it as far as you want. Harm none is quite a complex and layered statement that makes you ponder at lot. I like it.
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Re: Freedom.

PostThu Mar 02, 2017 6:46 pm

Taragaia wrote:
Loki wrote:
Honestly, true freedom would allow for harming others as you please.


That is true. I guess that doesn't really happen though, because even animals have a natural instinct that drives them to protect certain others and attack certain groups. So even in nature freedom has certain limits.

Loki wrote:Ultimately, I totally agree with your stance, that we should be free to do as we please so long as we aren't harming or overly inconveniencing others. CTs hate the wiccan quote, but personally I think it makes plenty of sense concerning freedom: "An it harm none, do what ye will"


Yes, I think that's a fine rule too. You can take it as far as you want. Harm none is quite a complex and layered statement that makes you ponder at lot. I like it.


Thinking more about it, the Wiccan quote even prohibits self-harm, which I hadn't really considered I guess because my immediate thought is "Harm no one else" but really it includes yourself as well. A solid rule to live by. You take that rule and the Golden Rule and humanity is good to go.
This message brought to you by My Brain, courtesy of My Fingers.

"We all are to some extent [agnostic]... So yes, I'm an 'agnostic', in as much as I don't actually know what happens when I die. I choose to operate under the assumption that God does not exist. I have no need for God in my life, the concept of a 'God' feels incredibly made up to me. It is not requisite for my every day living. For some people it is. They are 'theistic agnostics,' I am an 'atheistic agnostic.'" - Cara Santa Maria
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Re: Freedom.

PostThu Mar 02, 2017 8:56 pm

Iam very sorry about the trauma your family endured and i remember you mentioning it on the last board.
Yeah, maybe iam not expressing myself clearly. What i meant was one hears that statement alot and yes, the adult individual is right and that s/he can do as they please. Its their life afterall but life is so interconnected that a good or bad act on my person willnot stay contained but will ripple towards everyone around me. Whether i like it or not. So while one feels free to destroy their own life in a myriad of ways, at the end of the day friends, family members, the community are the ones left holding a bag of losses. So while i have the freedom to enjoy my life as i see fit, there is a check that i have to either employ or not. I think this says it better....
There is a story about a man in a boat who began to drill a hole under his feet where he sat. When people in the boat
demanded that he stop, he
responded: "This is none of your business. This is my place! I paid for it."
This absurd response is often the excuse used by the sinner to justify his or her behavior. "This is my life; it has nothing to do with you." Of course, anything we do or don’t do has an impact on others, especially on those nearest to us. Who hasn’t felt, in a big way, the results of other
people’s actions, either good or bad?

Loki wrote:Honestly, true freedom
would allow for harming
others as you please.

Really? Or am i seeing things differently. I would disagree because i believe true freedom will take everyone into account before venturing forth, so to speak. It would self-censor or impose checks/rules. Like that Edmund Burke quote in the OP, 'fake freedom' is like a bull in a china shop. Care to elaborate on your statement?
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