It is currently Wed Mar 01, 2017 6:11 pm


Announcement: The Vigilant Forums have been reopened! Please see here for further information.

Hell

Philosophical and metaphysical/spiritual discussions non specific to religion.
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

KoncreteMind

Registered User

0.5 stars

  • Posts: 92
  • Joined: 11 March 2014
  • Thanks Received: 49

Re: Hell

PostSun Feb 12, 2017 4:27 pm

Karlysymon wrote:I on the other hand believe otherwise, that the Bible has gone to great lengths to lay out this subject as it is because of the serious implications of 'living dead'. People who contact their dead loved ones later on make them their first go-to source for the future events and counsel. Taking the place of God. Later on, many deify them, breaking the 1st commandment. The bible is our defence against this kind of deception. Christ, Himself sealed the deal and was in agreement with earlier writers in John 5:28,29


Hear me out though Karly. When Samuel was written, would the readers have known that it wasnt Samuel but it was a demon mimicking Samuel? Or would they have read those verses and concluded that it was Samuel? If they wouldnt have concluded that, why in your opinion? I dont disagree with what you said above concerning taking the place of God, deifying, or making the contacted the go to source for counsel.

as you are aware, this happened some 13yrs before Saul died. If God, through Samuel never spoke to Saul till the prophet died. Why would God, through a dead 'Samuel' give Saul counsel? Iam sure David heard of that incident. Why didn't he ever conjure up the prophet who anoited him?
As for the one resurrection, iam assuming you are talking about a mass resurrection because Christ rose and countless others with Him. There are actually two 'mass' resurrections. When Christ returns, the righteous dead will come to life but the wicked dead will not because they can neither live in heaven nor earth because it will become uninhabitable.
Revelation 20:4-6


I personally believe that Samuel spoke to Saul before his death. And I think thats supported when Saul contacts Samuel and Samuel tells him what he already told him before his death. Im simply reading whats written and whats written (in Samuel at least) says Samuel appeared. Im also not making it as if Saul was right in doing what he did. All Im saying is the book of Samuel says that the ghost that appeared was Samuel. So Im not sure why I should ignore that because a writer thousands of years later says something otherwise.

Which leads to what I was saying about the bible not being 100% clear because of Moses appearing when he should have been dead. Moses being given an exception isnt written anywhere, so how was he seen with Jesus and Elijah? Thats not a clear message to me but to each their own.

We can run with the conversation till it runs out of gas. These kinds of discussions make one see things anew and one even learns something. Same thing with my conversation with Loki. So thank you! Honestly. If we hadn't run with it, i'd never have learned that tidbit about Saul that i mentioned earlier. We can agree to disagree. At the end of the day, we will all stand singly before God to account for our actions. But i hope to see you on that sea of glass! Really.


Sounds good to me and yea we all have the same good intention of just doing whats right in this life before passing onto a better existence afterwards. Though we have different ways of going about it. So I just hope that God reads our hearts and helps those of us who are serious about our intentions into reaching that goal. So I share that hope for you as well as myself and others who are at least TRYING to find whats right.. The bible doesnt seem to suggest that alot of people will reach it though...
Offline

KoncreteMind

Registered User

0.5 stars

  • Posts: 92
  • Joined: 11 March 2014
  • Thanks Received: 49

Re: Hell

PostSun Feb 12, 2017 4:36 pm

Taragaia wrote:
How would you explain someone who is not Christian like me, but has had two NDE's both showing heaven, bliss and angels then?

Deceptions by Satan? I mean obviously they didn't turn me into a Christian but only reassured me that the afterlife is a peaceful place. And there truckloads of stories like mine on the web. Lots of people who had near death experiences didn't turn Christian.


I dont understand what you want me to explain. Why you didnt become christian or whether it was from Satan or God?
Offline
User avatar

Karlysymon

Registered User

1 star

  • Posts: 150
  • Joined: 09 January 2017
  • Thanks Received: 130

Re: Hell

PostSun Feb 12, 2017 9:52 pm

Taragaia wrote:But deifying Christ is not a
problem for a God who
demands only He is worshiped? I recall several verses in the Bible in which Christ clearly says He is the Son of God, not God.
Yet loads of people place Him
before God or pray to God
through Him. Why is that
acceptable?

Hi Tara, hoping you are having a great weekend. I've explained this in my conversation with Loki but will explain it here again. God has many prerogatives but the main ones are: worship, creatorship and immortality. Those are the things that make one 'a god'. And we worship God mainly because of the other two. No one or nothing, in all creation has those 'abilities'. Only the Godhead. Christ, when He was on earth clearly demonstrated that He was God. Yes he said He was the Son of God for redemption purposes. But He was worshipped and He didn't deny it. Even when He ascended to heaven after His resurrection, He was worshipped by the angels and they still do. Because when they bow before the Father, they do so before the Son aswell. Scripture is very clear about Christ's creatorship. The very act of His death on the cross was life-giving. The position of Christ in the Godhead has ALWAYS been disputed. It continues to this day in your question and in other faiths. The cross had many purposes and one of them was establish that fact before all intelligences that Christ is God. If you are interested in the verses, i can give them to you.

@Koncrete
We can debate all day whether it was or wasn't the real Samuel that the witch of Endor conjured up. I think we should let the matter rest. But i will leave you with these verses.
*The act of turning to mediums and spiritists for advice DEFILED the seeker thus was forbidden (Leviticus 19:26,31 and 20:27)
*Those who practise magic arts / witchcraft will not inherit the kingdom of God.(Galatians 5:20-21 and Revelation 21:8, 22:14-15)
I just hope that if or when a being arises before you, so convincing, claiming to be Elijah or one of the disciples or any other prophet, you will be grounded enough in your beliefs to tell the real from the fake.
Because we cannot discount it from happening, right? And the government isn't sleeping either. I know you will love this
http://truthstreammedia.com/2015/10/19/ ... ass-psyop/
so please lemme know what you think of it.
Online
User avatar

Taragaia

Awake

Registered User

1.5 stars

  • Posts: 200
  • Joined: 03 January 2017
  • Location: Goa, India
  • Gender: Female
  • Thanks Received: 136

Re: Hell

PostMon Feb 13, 2017 4:15 am

KoncreteMind wrote:
Taragaia wrote:
How would you explain someone who is not Christian like me, but has had two NDE's both showing heaven, bliss and angels then?

Deceptions by Satan? I mean obviously they didn't turn me into a Christian but only reassured me that the afterlife is a peaceful place. And there truckloads of stories like mine on the web. Lots of people who had near death experiences didn't turn Christian.


I dont understand what you want me to explain. Why you didnt become christian or whether it was from Satan or God?


The latter, because the gest I got from your posts is that an NDE should show you the truth about the world and whether you're going to Hell or Heaven.
The only way out is in
Offline

KoncreteMind

Registered User

0.5 stars

  • Posts: 92
  • Joined: 11 March 2014
  • Thanks Received: 49

Re: Hell

PostMon Feb 13, 2017 5:52 am

Karlysymon wrote:@Koncrete
We can debate all day whether it was or wasn't the real Samuel that the witch of Endor conjured up. I think we should let the matter rest. But i will leave you with these verses.
*The act of turning to mediums and spiritists for advice DEFILED the seeker thus was forbidden (Leviticus 19:26,31 and 20:27)
*Those who practise magic arts / witchcraft will not inherit the kingdom of God.(Galatians 5:20-21 and Revelation 21:8, 22:14-15)
I just hope that if or when a being arises before you, so convincing, claiming to be Elijah or one of the disciples or any other prophet, you will be grounded enough in your beliefs to tell the real from the fake.
Because we cannot discount it from happening, right? And the government isn't sleeping either. I know you will love this
http://truthstreammedia.com/2015/10/19/ ... ass-psyop/
so please lemme know what you think of it.


I agree with those verses and my argument wasnt to defend the practice or Saul and only to state that the bible wasnt very clear (in my own opinion of course) about the state of the dead since the writer of the book of Samuel wrote that Samuel was conjured up.

As far as bluebeam, yes I've heard of it. Its easy to say now, but I do not think I will be convinced by anything I see in the sky because the bible says to not be amazed at the signs in the sky. When I read the bible front to back, I came to the conclusion that the Israelites were very ethnocentric in belief and believed that if you werent an Israelite, to worship their God you had to believe and behave as they did. Its probably why every prophet (well from Moses to "Jesus") followed their one way of life and never told others NOT to. And I think when Jesus came and said who he came for, I think my conclusion became further cemented. I doubt whatever "they" put up in the bluebeam will be saying or moving along these type of lines so personally Im not worried about it though Im sure it exists.

To me the fake tells us not to live as these prophets did and that has already come many times...
Offline

KoncreteMind

Registered User

0.5 stars

  • Posts: 92
  • Joined: 11 March 2014
  • Thanks Received: 49

Re: Hell

PostMon Feb 13, 2017 5:53 am

Taragaia wrote:
KoncreteMind wrote:
Taragaia wrote:
How would you explain someone who is not Christian like me, but has had two NDE's both showing heaven, bliss and angels then?

Deceptions by Satan? I mean obviously they didn't turn me into a Christian but only reassured me that the afterlife is a peaceful place. And there truckloads of stories like mine on the web. Lots of people who had near death experiences didn't turn Christian.


I dont understand what you want me to explain. Why you didnt become christian or whether it was from Satan or God?


The latter, because the gest I got from your posts is that an NDE should show you the truth about the world and whether you're going to Hell or Heaven.


I believe it can be both to be honest.
Online
User avatar

Taragaia

Awake

Registered User

1.5 stars

  • Posts: 200
  • Joined: 03 January 2017
  • Location: Goa, India
  • Gender: Female
  • Thanks Received: 136

Re: Hell

PostMon Feb 13, 2017 11:58 am

KoncreteMind wrote:
I believe it can be both to be honest.


Please tell me more? :Smile:

Sorry for bugging you with so many questions, but I am genuinely interested.
The only way out is in
Offline
User avatar

Karlysymon

Registered User

1 star

  • Posts: 150
  • Joined: 09 January 2017
  • Thanks Received: 130

Re: Hell

PostMon Feb 13, 2017 11:22 pm

@Koncrete
Just don't forget that the devil can and does use truth to make people fall.
Matthew 24
24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and
perform great signs and
wonders to deceive, if possible,
even the elect. 25 See, I have told you in advance.
Offline

KoncreteMind

Registered User

0.5 stars

  • Posts: 92
  • Joined: 11 March 2014
  • Thanks Received: 49

Re: Hell

PostTue Feb 14, 2017 2:36 am

Taragaia wrote:
KoncreteMind wrote:
I believe it can be both to be honest.


Please tell me more? :Smile:

Sorry for bugging you with so many questions, but I am genuinely interested.


You're not bugging me at all but my opinion is both Satan and God can give visions. Afterall, thats where psychics get their powers from (imo)

@ Karly, yes I believe he can use the truth to mislead, but not the truth to follow what God says (i.e. commandments). If you follow God's commandments I dont believe you CAN be led astray.
Online
User avatar

Taragaia

Awake

Registered User

1.5 stars

  • Posts: 200
  • Joined: 03 January 2017
  • Location: Goa, India
  • Gender: Female
  • Thanks Received: 136

Re: Hell

PostFri Feb 24, 2017 8:21 am

KoncreteMind wrote:
Taragaia wrote:
KoncreteMind wrote:
I believe it can be both to be honest.


Please tell me more? :Smile:

Sorry for bugging you with so many questions, but I am genuinely interested.


You're not bugging me at all but my opinion is both Satan and God can give visions. Afterall, thats where psychics get their powers from (imo)

@ Karly, yes I believe he can use the truth to mislead, but not the truth to follow what God says (i.e. commandments). If you follow God's commandments I dont believe you CAN be led astray.


Ok so the visions I got that didn't make me Christian should mean that I am deceived by Satan then at the time of my NDE?

Thanks for clarifying.
The only way out is in
PreviousNext

Return to Philosophy and Metaphysics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests