Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:39 am
Karlysymon wrote:Ofcourse iam incapable of explaining the mechanics of such appearances but given what the Bible speaks about the state of the dead, any apparitions of dead people are demons, whether Marian or otherwise. And God, time and again warns us about consulting the dead. Here are some verses:
16 Samuel said:
If the Lord has turned away from you and is now your enemy, don’t ask me what to do. 17 I’ve already told you: The Lord has sworn to take the kingdom from you and give it to David. And that’s just what he’s doing! 18 When the Lord was angry with the Amalekites, he told you to destroy them, but you didn’t do it. That’s why the Lord is doing this to you. 19 Tomorrow the Lord will let the Philistines defeat Israel’s army, then you and your sons will join me down here in the world of the dead.
I already believe you and understood your perspective. You do not have to convince anyone. It was a great thing to bring it up and explore this angle of hell. Would have loved to have witnessed it though.... Like that study i brought up in my last post, all NDEs are pretty much similar....lots of light, heaven, hell etc and people get spiritual when they 'return'.
Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:45 am
Koncrete Mind wrote:I hope Im not coming off harsh to you Karly. I wasn't testing you or seeing if you could explain something to my liking, but just
genuinely asking for your view on it. Im just trying to take an extra step to keep things cordial because some told me that my views rub people the wrong way. I dont really care to be honest because beliefs are like
a*holes you know? But I still like discussing things, especially when done amicably so I want to take the extra step to show those Im discussing with that even though we may agree or
disagree, we can do so in peace..
....................let me take it
another route (if you want to
continue to discuss this topic, if not just disregard. I wont mind). Me and you both believe God is control of all things right? So to you, what does it mean that He puts people who died or were
near death through these
things? Is there a lesson He is
trying to teach? Or do you
believe that its the work of demons? Honestly just looking for your take on it...
‘Does Job fear God for nothing?’ Satan replied. ‘Have you not put a hedge
around him and his household and everything he has?
Remember the former things,
those of long ago;
I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me. I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
The days are coming,’ declares the Sovereign Lord,
‘when I will send a famine
through the land –
not a famine of food or a thirst for water, but a famine of hearing the words of the Lord. 12 People will stagger from sea to sea
and wander from north to east, searching for the word of the Lord, but they will not find it.
So then he told them plainly, ‘Lazarus is dead, 15 and for your sake I am glad I was not there,so that you may believe. But let us go to him.’
So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said,
‘Father, I thank you that you
have heard me. 42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.’
Jesus said to her, ‘Your brother will rise again.’ 24 Martha answered, ‘I know he will rise again in the
resurrection at the last day.’
Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:35 pm
Mon Feb 06, 2017 10:33 pm
Koncrete Mind wrote: I've had complaints about me or my beliefs while Im sure you
Forgive me if Im wrong, but I think I remember reading one of your posts saying that the internet or this website is like a place where you can discuss things you cant really discuss in real life. Im in that same boat so I dont mind reading a person lay it out, and doing so myself. I like doing that with people who may agree or disagree with my beliefs.
I just dont think that Saul conjuring up the devil or a demon for answers, would give him the same truth that a prophet gave.....I mean If I think of it as me conjuring up a dead relative or friend for answers, I think it would be a demon that came (if anything came at all). But I also think that I wouldnt get truth from whatever I conjured up. I think whatever came (if it came at all) would lead me astray and not to the understanding that God wanted me to have.
And since science tells us that underneath the surface theres fire, I think thats the lake of fire. Maybe Im connecting dts that arent
there, but it makes sense to me.
Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:08 pm
Karlysymon wrote:It is true i haven't or maybe i just didn't care to find out. Iam curious as to why you are so sure though.... You don't have to answer if you don't want to.
Yeah i said that and since we are kindred spirits, you know how hard life is. You can tell by my posts what interests me, and in my world, people similar to me are extremely rare. I don't use social networks either. So VCF and VF have been a life line for me.
Yeah, why did the writer state Samuel and not an evil spirit? We'll never know, i guess. But for me, the Bible is its own interpreter. There are countless verses, as i said before, on the state of the dead. And since all those verse unanimously state that the dead are dead, then its obvious it had to be an impersonation.
We shouldn't under estimate the arch enemy. He will use anything to bring us down. Even truth. Remember he tempted both Eve and Christ by using the word of God. Iam sure you have heard stories of dead people solving their own murders, or other crimes through apparitions ofcourse. Isn't truth revealed? Its devil's bait to hook us in. With perpetrators brought to justice. But the end result of all this, is that people involved in this become 'converted' and commune or consult the dead. Which, as a christian, God warns us against. A demon can tell you the shenanigans your best friend is up to right now. He can see them but you can't. Isn't that truth, if it brought to you? But it is all bait. Please lt me know what you think of this
I think i too said that visions occur when one is conscious/ fully awake not at some point of death, when all consciousness is almost gone. And from the way you've narrated the story, i sense that individual had a real NDE inorder to exhibit profound change. I wasn't there but you have to look at motive. Why fake it? What was there to gain from the fakery?
True but for me, that lake of fire will be a real hell after the millenium. When Christ returns, the living wicked will die and their bodies will litter the earth, from one end to another. Its is also why birds are called to a feast. (Rev 19:21, Jeremiah 25:33, Isaiah 34:3-4)
Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:32 pm
Koncrete Mind wrote:My point in a long roundabout way, was that imo considering this story in itself paints it as Samuel and not an evil spirit, that the
bible isnt very clear about what the dead. Combine that verse in Samuel, with the
transfiguration of Jesus which had Elijah and Moses appearing, as well as Jesus being resurrected (bodily) and being taken to heaven (in the body) and I think the picture is muddied up even further. Then theres also the fact that the disciples gave credence to reincarnation. But Im speaking from my own perspective as a person who has found SOME type of truth in every religion and doesnt think any ONE book
has ALL the answers we need
wisdom etc... Some people believe the bible is all we need and as it was originally written, we have today. I doubt this, but dont knock the belief...
But anyways, how you do
incorporate God into NDE's? As in, since He is in control of all, what is the purpose for putting people through (fake?) visions/experiences? Do you feel like He's trying to teach a lesson, warn them, or is it Him allowing demons to play tricks on people? Im not sure what your position is on NDE's, but I assume you do not put much stock in them or consider them wishy washy (i.e. depends on
the person/situation of the NDE)
Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:27 am
Personally, Christianity is sufficient for me. At thos point in my life, I frankly don't have the energy and time to invest in 'hunting down' other truths. Given that a new religion pops every other decade with truth. I will acquaint myself with other faiths to gain an understanding and where 'they' are coming from.
There is a tv show that i loved alot that aired on Fox: Fact or Fiction. And the series featured alot of supernatural themed stories. Many of them revolving around dead people helping the living in one way or another. I would come away wondering why God would forbid contacting the dead if so much good could come from from it. I examined the matter with all available verses and everyday logic (if dead people can come back to torment the living, why aren't the spirits of the hundreds of chickens, cows, goats, lambs,etc that we've devoured over the years return to torment us? Would the men who work in the abattoirs even maintain a sane existence under such torment? Iam sure they have a goodnight's sleep every day) and came to the conclusion that i did. And i think you should thoroughly investigate the matter and draw a conclusion that rests with your person.
Regarding the transfiguration, we both know Elijah was translated and there is some evidence for Moses' resurrection in Jude 9. Why would Micheal and the devil dispute over his body if it was going to stay in the ground for ages? It would then mean it wasn't a spirit but Moses in the flesh.
I do believe in NDEs but it just doesn't make sense to me that God waits to bring someone to a point of death inorder to overwhelm them with visions of hell or heaven. When it can be done while they are alive and kicking. I think a lesson would be more like it than a warning, since hell doesn't exist as per popular belief. We all are afraid of losing our lives, so it would make more sense if someone straightened out their lives once they find out they were almost dead.
Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:14 pm
Personally I think being near death, and seeing a vision of heaven/hell would have more impact on a person and their willingness to change, then a person who is alive and healthy having the same visions. Its like one almost dies and gets to see where he or she is headed and that causes that one to change rather than one just having a vision out of nowhere in their day to day, then coming out of it and being faced with the same scenario they were before the vision.. But my position has been if God is control of all, than that includes these NDE's that have people seeing visions of heavens/hells. So if He is allowing them to see these visions there must be SOMETHING that He wants them to take out of it.
Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:36 pm
Koncrete Mind wrote:My only point was that the bible isn't exactly 100% crystal clear about what happens after death. Moses being seen with Elijah and Jesus (imo) while the bible says there is ONE resurrection exemplifies that.
“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all
who are in their graves will
hear his voice 29 and come out —those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.
Until the day Samuel died, he did not go to see Saul again, though Samuel mourned for him. And the Lord regretted that he had made Saul king over Israel.
I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been
given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not
received its mark on their
foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first
resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:31 am